Why I think 7th is the best yet; and what it gives (a positive view of 7th ed 40k)

[daboarder]

Be careful you don't speak too soon. People were saying the exact same things about 6th edition after Chaos and Dark Angels, until Tau and Eldaar dropped.

people never remember this man, they NEVER acknowledge that they've used that rhetoric before and been wrong

[Eldar_Atog]

Rules Lawyers will always find a way. Always.

Sure as poop smells of poop.

If they can't find a loophole, they'll find something else.

True. Dealing with rules lawyering is just part of the game. Much like going to the zoo and having the chimps throw poop at you. It's just going to happen.

With that said... GW is not helping the situation with the anything goes approach to rules. I would compare that to collecting your poop all week, giving it to the chimps, and letting them throw all the poop at you. Giving rules lawyers more poop to work with is just silly.

[John Bower]

This is not about loopholes that require some rule bending. Thats about holes in the basic rules so big that a Craftworld could fit through.
Nearly the entire cover and terrain section was a copy&paste job from 6th while they changed how terrain works in general in 7th.

Ruins are a good example of this.

I actually think that if you hit ruins with a blast weapon or flamethrower it makes more sense to have anyone under the template hit. Just now you get a straight 4+ cover for anyone hit. Ofc flamers ignore that but hey, that is what they were designed for no? Think on it this way, I can spray a flamer across floors, making sure I hit the whole building (ruin) and a blast will send shards flying at phenominal (read fatally wounding) speeds between the floors.

As to most other cover; well that's sort of covered in the various dataslates for different buildings/woods/craters etc. I think they just expect you to know (read discuss) what is the nearest to the cover when it isn't explained.

What I think they tried to do was make it a little more streamlined than 6th. But what they did instead was leave rather large gaps that require a lot of dare I say 'common sense' to overcome. I don't mean that in an insulting way; we all get it wrong after all from time to time, but you do have to 'think outside the box' a bit.

I'll be honest there's very few rules I've got any real issues with; buildings should only be damaged with pens not glances is one, and challenges in a war with artillery and huge weapons whose very speed of travel can knock a flying machine down is just plain daft. I know it's narrative; but at the total expense of what would really happen. I mean would you (assuming you were a sergeant) accept a challenge from some guy knowing he's going to kill you before you even get a chance to hit him? And really are your mates going to say 'You rotten coward!' for not doing so? I think not. I think they would rather their sarge sneaks in unobserved (like a certain hobbit with a certain ring) and sticks the knife between his shoulder blades from behind.

And if you think about it; how much close combat goes on in a modern war? I can see it from a boarding perspective, but even then look to the original Star Wars opening scenes to see that even there no close combat occurred, it was running gun battles in the corridors. I do think there's still a little too much of Warhammer in 40k; Close combat is for trenches at best; and we don't really see much of those except in Apocalypse or narrative planetstrike scenarios.

[Charistoph]

And if you think about it; how much close combat goes on in a modern war? I can see it from a boarding perspective, but even then look to the original Star Wars opening scenes to see that even there no close combat occurred, it was running gun battles in the corridors. I do think there's still a little too much of Warhammer in 40k; Close combat is for trenches at best; and we don't really see much of those except in Apocalypse or narrative planetstrike scenarios.

You probably feel that way about the Dune series, too. Keep in mind that available weapons and defenses determine what makes an effective combat style.

If everyone carries AP: 2 guns, then close combat would be a joke. But if the average gun can be blocked by your armor, and you can do more damage up close, they by golly, you run up and punch the other guy.

Close Combat was actually far more useful when all Power Weapons ignored armor, and pistols gave extra attacks to even Power Fists, and let's not forget being able to Consolidate in to Combat, and Shooting Weapons weren't as effective.

But now, it's all about that Cover, because Shooting has caught up to where our "Modern" standards lie. Rapid Fire has no faults (aside from no Charge). Salvo Weapons have been introduced making some older Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons even nastier. Availability of good AP guns (or have a shot at it) have become more prevalent.

[World Of Pain]

I actually think that if you hit ruins with a blast weapon or flamethrower it makes more sense to have anyone under the template hit. Just now you get a straight 4+ cover for anyone hit. Ofc flamers ignore that but hey, that is what they were designed for no? Think on it this way, I can spray a flamer across floors, making sure I hit the whole building (ruin) and a blast will send shards flying at phenominal (read fatally wounding) speeds between the floors.

Hi John! Im just interested that how do you measure who is under the template? Do you still keep the small end of the template in contact with the fireing model (RAW) or do you have a house rule to lift it up on top of it? Do you still require LOS with that template to cause wounds? In most of the ruined buildings its really dificult to use flamers against models on the higher floors if you require LOS.

If you dont force players to keep that short end in contact with the user model do you allow jump units and/or skimmers/flyers to fire any floor or can everyone do it? So can regular Space Marine with a flamer fire models on the 5th or 6th floor of the ruins or do you have limitations to this?

Just really interested how you have overcome these problems caused By GW´s awfull rule writing.

[John Bower]

Hi John! Im just interested that how do you measure who is under the template? Do you still keep the small end of the template in contact with the fireing model (RAW) or do you have a house rule to lift it up on top of it? Do you still require LOS with that template to cause wounds? In most of the ruined buildings its really dificult to use flamers against models on the higher floors if you require LOS.

If you dont force players to keep that short end in contact with the user model do you allow jump units and/or skimmers/flyers to fire any floor or can everyone do it? So can regular Space Marine with a flamer fire models on the 5th or 6th floor of the ruins or do you have limitations to this?

Just really interested how you have overcome these problems caused By GW´s awfull rule writing.

Never had a problem with 5th or 6th floor; nowhere I play goes up that high anyway. And as to it 'touching' the base that's just a pov thing surely. looking from above it has to be 'touching' as it close enough to be touching the base, after that it's any models in the ruins under the template. I tell you what, you stand on the 6th floor of a block of half demolished flats and I'll see if I can burn you to death with a flamethrower... I'd bet I can whether I can see you or not. But in game as long as I can see a model from your squad I can flame them. RAW.

[Charon]

Thats not even my issue with ruins but another point for the garbage can.

If I stand in the 6th floor of a building and you try to fry me from ground level you will most probably die a very painful death at the hand of your own weapon.
Not to speak of the frag grenade lobbed into the 11th floor killing people in the basement.

People IN ruins receive a 4+ cover save.
There is no more area terrain. So you get a 4+ if you are standing on top of the building unconcealed.
You get a 4+ for standing at the ground level in the open door of the ruined building.
You get a 5+ for standing 2" behind the ruin when your model is concealed by 25% or more.

Makes sense.

[Charistoph]

Except that whole, "Ignores Cover" thing that Templates get...

[Mr Mystery]

Can someone give me a page ref?

I want to have a read of it, see if people are claiming the rule is badly written, or just don't like how it is written.

[John Bower]

Thats not even my issue with ruins but another point for the garbage can.

If I stand in the 6th floor of a building and you try to fry me from ground level you will most probably die a very painful death at the hand of your own weapon.
Not to speak of the frag grenade lobbed into the 11th floor killing people in the basement.

People IN ruins receive a 4+ cover save.
There is no more area terrain. So you get a 4+ if you are standing on top of the building unconcealed.
You get a 4+ for standing at the ground level in the open door of the ruined building.
You get a 5+ for standing 2" behind the ruin when your model is concealed by 25% or more.

Makes sense.

Except then you are 'behind' a wall so get a 4+ as normal. unless there's no wall between you in which case the 5+ is fine.