H.i.s.h.p

[Charistoph]

And yet, there are still tactical reasons to want to fire your Snap Shotting weapons first. For example, if you're firing at a Crusader Squad where the Scouts are in front.

The counter-point would then be, why would you need to be snap-firing the weapons first without actual known need or requirement? After all, if your snap-fired weapons make any other shots pointless (ha ha), then you wouldn't need to fire the Ordnance weapon, and thus didn't need to snap-fire those weapons.

I'm not necessarily saying it's my way only, but the simple fact is that they changed the Shooting Phase process without taking Ordnance on Vehicles in to account, and it needs to be addressed. What I posted was the easiest/simplest way to address it without creating major changes to the system. But, you are coming across as it does not need to be addressed at all.

[Houghten]

You what? Of course you still want to fire the Ordnance weapon! I'm saying you want to clear out the 4+ bodies using the AP4 weapons before you move on to the 3+ bodies with your AP3 weapon.

And I maintain that it doesn't need addressing. Firing a weapon at full BS and then firing an Ordnance weapon is like moving a rook diagonally. Just because you did it doesn't mean it was a legal move. The rule doesn't say "afterwards" anywhere, just "that turn."

[DWest]

You what? Of course you still want to fire the Ordnance weapon! I'm saying you want to clear out the 4+ bodies using the AP4 weapons before you move on to the 3+ bodies with your AP3 weapon.

Actually, this is already taken care of with the current rules: In the Shooting Phase section, under Allocate Wounds and Remove Casualties, it says "If several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the attacks decides the order in which they are allocated." The Battlecannon and Heavy Bolters have different Strength and AP, and so they form different Wound Pools. So fire the Battlecannon, then the Bolters, then resolve the Bolter wounds first, followed by the Battlecannon.

[Houghten]

That step comes after Select A Weapon but before Select Another Weapon. It's there for things like Rending weapons that can actually have different APs by themselves.

[Charistoph]

You what? Of course you still want to fire the Ordnance weapon! I'm saying you want to clear out the 4+ bodies using the AP4 weapons before you move on to the 3+ bodies with your AP3 weapon.

And I maintain that it doesn't need addressing. Firing a weapon at full BS and then firing an Ordnance weapon is like moving a rook diagonally. Just because you did it doesn't mean it was a legal move. The rule doesn't say "afterwards" anywhere, just "that turn."

And those cases where a Leman Russ fires 3 Lascannon at another Tank, but Snap-Fired them, got REALLY lucky, and blew up the tank... Why were you Snap-Firing again? Oh, right, the Battle Cannon was going to shoot, too. At the Exploded Tank...

Not every case is about shooting Crusader Squads or Aspect Squads.

[Houghten]

...aside from not actually being able to take sponson lascannon, I'm curious why you would choose to fire the weapons in that particular order in that particular case.

I want to keep the ability to choose, not dictate thou must fire thy ordnance last.

[John Bower]

And those cases where a Leman Russ fires 3 Lascannon at another Tank, but Snap-Fired them, got REALLY lucky, and blew up the tank... Why were you Snap-Firing again? Oh, right, the Battle Cannon was going to shoot, too. At the Exploded Tank...

Not every case is about shooting Crusader Squads or Aspect Squads.

He didn't say you want to fire them first 'every' time; read the whole statement; it was an example of when you might want to. Of course if you're firing at a tank you want to fire the big gun first in the hope it hits. If not then you would hit it with the Lascannon(s).

But the point still stands; the rule is clear; if you have or are going to fire the ordnance weapon all other weapons must fire snapshots; makes no difference if you fire first or after the big gun.

[Gleipnir]

gotta say I agree the whole Select a Weapon rule in the Shooting and Assault phase was a stupid rule addition, specially since it doesn't hold up well when used in conjunctions with any rules that impose penalties for further attacks.

Do Tau now get to Shoot with and resolve markerlights attacks then choose to fire pulse rifles oh but don't forget you cant remove any counters you added from the same unit only counters that were there before your unit started firing. Its crappy rules writing. I understand the intent was they wanted to give the attacker the option of determining what attack types get used in what order as a direct counter to the defender being able to position where he takes his loses from his unit first via positioning his units and look out sir rolls. 6th edition did this fine by separating out all the attack types into dice pools by strength, AP, special effects and resolving each one at a dice pool at a time(the rule simply could have used better clarification that it applied to both shooting and assault attacks and applied to both rolls to Wound and rolls for armor penetration.

[Charistoph]

...aside from not actually being able to take sponson lascannon, I'm curious why you would choose to fire the weapons in that particular order in that particular case.

Hunh, that changed. But change it to Multi-meltas, and you have the same case.

As to why in that order? Um... Lascannons and multimeltas have a better chance to cause an Explosion! than a Battle Cannon. But you choose to Snap Fire in case it doesn't work and you need the Battle Cannon's hit.

I want to keep the ability to choose, not dictate thou must fire thy ordnance last.

Um, I said first. And as I said, it is more for clarification and smoothness of the game to prevent problems such as they were described. I even said it doesn't have to be my way. As someone said above, just having it declared should be sufficient in most cases. There are almost as many cases where firing any snap-fired weapons may cause the Ordnance NOT to be able fired after the case due to loss of target.

The simple fact is that it is a hole in the order of operations. People forget things all the time and it helps having that order of operations to smooth things out.

Either way, you are still having to make the same basic choice, to fire Ordnance or not. The only difference is that always firing Ordnance first will set those conditions up without question instead of leaving it an open case that someone could argue.

But the point still stands; the rule is clear; if you have or are going to fire the ordnance weapon all other weapons must fire snapshots; makes no difference if you fire first or after the big gun.

Actually, the rule is not clear because it does a piss poor job of recognizing the order of operations. If it was clear, then this wouldn't have been needed to be brought up.

[Gleipnir]

Actually, this is already taken care of with the current rules: In the Shooting Phase section, under Allocate Wounds and Remove Casualties, it says "If several pools of Wounds need to be allocated, the player making the attacks decides the order in which they are allocated." The Battlecannon and Heavy Bolters have different Strength and AP, and so they form different Wound Pools. So fire the Battlecannon, then the Bolters, then resolve the Bolter wounds first, followed by the Battlecannon.

Actually this changed with 7th Edition, with the addition of the Select your Weapon type/name to the shooting phase and the new wording that makes you resolve every weapons attacks from roll to hit to roll to wound to its completion prior to selecting the next weapon and starting over again, gone are the days of Fast Dice rolling to hit.