Eldar- Post-Baron Jetbike seer star?

[achikin]

iv been doing 1 farseer with tel and one with fate, and the dragons aren't walking, its risky, but it works, i keep one squad of dire avengers in reserves and place the dragons in pref los blocking terrain next to a serpent, turn one they jump in and i have fire dragons in a ob sec serpent, and yea the single casts are annoying considering the warlocks rolling on battle, but its worked so far

[Dave Mcturk]

ive been running a cheaper council option - spearlocks on foot with illic and a seer / autarch with shard. stick them in a spare wavz or if you prefer run on foot. 2+ cover save with no need for the 'unconceal' spell, if youre lucky invisibility or super shroud, st 9 12" weapons with up to 9" battle focus, [giving a max of 27" threat range - which isnt much worse than bikes 24"] - ok they arent toughness 4 but they are easier to hide [out on foot or in serpent] and almost as manouverable - not much point in turbo boosting a seer council past turn one anyway.

traditional council came in at about 750pts depending; a footlock council even with illic is less. - if you drop a lock and take an extra hq/detachment you can even get three hq choices in your serpent.

[Charon]

a footlock council even with illic is less.

Yes it is less....
less casting
less mobility
less durability

and although it is also less points, it suddenly is way to expensive to be valid

[Dave Mcturk]

Yes it is less....
less casting
less mobility
less durability

and although it is also less points, it suddenly is way to expensive to be valid

its no deathstar, but the jetlocks arent really that much better any more, with footlocks getting battle focus and the odd lucky quicken, and they fit in an invisi-serpent ... the jetbikes have no where to hide... the st9 spears work the same and you can risk the odd 'spell' with two or three warp charge dice, new lock spells do very little for bikes, and i dont think ive used - certainly not got past dispell or deny the witch - a single lock power against an enemy unit, since 7th dropped.

the major benefit of 9 or 10 cheaper footlocks is the corresponding increase in warp charge points for the farseer/s. [especially renewer if running wraithknights]

so ...
the casting is the same if not better [and is only 40pts dead per fail as opposed to 55pts]

the mobility with bikes is obviously secure 12" move + 12" shooting or 36" turbo
but
footlocks can move 6" in a serpent, get out 6", battle focus{+quicken} up to 9" and then still shoot 12" which is dramatically
further !
durability v shooting is obviously affected by the toughness drop - but on foot they can 'hide' in a serpent
durability in combat is much of a muchness as they arent really designed to take on large high ST units, but put out a good volume of fleshbane hits against things like MC, which dont really care if they are t3 or t4 anyway.

there are many good builds in the new codex - but i for one prefer to experiment rather than just fielding three wraithknights !

[and yes while im thinking about it i have run the footcouncil as a skirmish screen for a three wraithknight build. i dont think it was much fun for my opponent though !]

[achikin]

hiding is easier, but if you stick them in a serpent you waste a round of psychic due to not being able to cast anything but witchfires and beams out of a vehicles fire points, which basically shuts them down, cause you can only embark in the movement phase, and personally, i dont rely on spears too much due to the lack of ap, id rather have the bunch of twin-linked cats that have a chance to be 6s, however; it looks very interesting and fun so i will probably run it sometime to see how it does. and the matter of casting lock spells- i usually cast their spells rarely unless its reveal or horrify (horrify due to the combo with psychic shriek) everyone else is basically warp dice and shots, and just to clear things up, the archon is just there for ww portal, he has no other function in the list, the ideal-like i said IDEAL, not always gonna happen-situation is that they drop, p-kill, ivis etc.., s-kill, spread out, then next turn have the caddy serpent waiting for his horribleness to hop in

[Charon]

and they fit in an invisi-serpent ... the jetbikes have no where to hide...

You cant cast spells while in a serpent.
You could use witchfires out of your fire points which the Serpent doesnt have. So you have basically an invisible Serpent for what? For 650 points?

Jetbikes do not NEED to hide. They soak up fire. Invis and a rerollable 2+ save. Why would you want to hide this? Its nearly invincible.

[and yes while im thinking about it i have run the footcouncil as a skirmish screen for a three wraithknight build. i dont think it was much fun for my opponent though !]

Excellent idea slowing your Wraith Knights down and denying them one of their major advantages.

[Dave Mcturk]

You cant cast spells while in a serpent.
You could use witchfires out of your fire points which the Serpent doesnt have. So you have basically an invisible Serpent for what? For 650 points?

Jetbikes do not NEED to hide. They soak up fire. Invis and a rerollable 2+ save. Why would you want to hide this? Its nearly invincible.



Excellent idea slowing your Wraith Knights down and denying them one of their major advantages.

interesting debate !

i suppose it really does depend on your local meta. i use wraithknights almost exclusively as fire platforms, causing mayhem from afar, against necron blobs / de / or tau they are vulnerable out of cover. the locks can move almost as fast and certainly keep off annoying t4 things like wraith that can easily bog down a knight.

ive no idea how you guarantee invisibility for an 800pt + jetlock star - even with two farseers - or for that matter the -re-rollable 2+ save ... both of which are nice if you roll them and get them off without perils or dispelling.

the st9 spear is really useful for denying fnp on t4 targets, and as ive previously shown has at least as good range on foot -
they are also pretty good at totalling out vehicles up to A12 even 13 - and then definitely 'hideable' afterwards - getting 10/12 bikes into spear range and getting them out of harms way afterwards is much harder.

another situation i have come across that might be peculiar is getting caught by orczez - the st8 power claws really dont care if the locks are on foot or bikes - never ideal getting caught - but 120 of them are difficult to avoid entirely and another 150pts of eldar comes in handy.

there are lots of things out there that 'ignore cover' and even in 6th when you could guarantee a 2+ re-rollable ive seen my jet-council shredded by some unlucky dice rolls - i wasnt claiming any special benefits for the footlocks - they have no armours save, they have no jink save, they cant do pop up attacks as easily, they have no tl cats for bladestorming meq/teq, but they are only 40pts - at games under 1850 pts i think they can be extremely useful.

some element of confusion i didnt mean the serpents was invisible - though it could be or hidden - but that the locks were ... safe in a metal box for at least one turn

[Da Gargoyle]

achikin - why waste 15 points on Runes of Witnessing? Only one use and your Ghost Helm does the same job all the time, just keep a warp point handy. And why start your game with your dragons out of the Serpent only to board them 1st turn? Drop the Runes and use it on the serpent with Holo Fields, that plus serpent shield will make it the best survivability option if you are worried about the 1st round of shooting.

D McT - Warlocks are listed as 35 points in my codex, I think you might be ripping yourself off in games.

I now use my Jetlocks for anti armour with the spears and the TL cats for anti infantry. Last time I gamed them they finished off a Chaos cult for first blood and dipped behind cover after the shooting. The footlocks may find their way onto the table with Storm Guardians or Guardian Defenders, with the cover blessing they are more dangerous than rangers, if you kit them with a Star Cannon. No armour saves on an ap2, 2+ wound with two shots is better odds than 5 at 4+ to wound with ap6.

[Dave Mcturk]

achikin - why waste 15 points on Runes of Witnessing? Only one use and your Ghost Helm does the same job all the time, just keep a warp point handy. And why start your game with your dragons out of the Serpent only to board them 1st turn? Drop the Runes and use it on the serpent with Holo Fields, that plus serpent shield will make it the best survivability option if you are worried about the 1st round of shooting.

D McT - Warlocks are listed as 35 points in my codex, I think you might be ripping yourself off in games.

I now use my Jetlocks for anti armour with the spears and the TL cats for anti infantry. Last time I gamed them they finished off a Chaos cult for first blood and dipped behind cover after the shooting. The footlocks may find their way onto the table with Storm Guardians or Guardian Defenders, with the cover blessing they are more dangerous than rangers, if you kit them with a Star Cannon. No armour saves on an ap2, 2+ wound with two shots is better odds than 5 at 4+ to wound with ap6.

warlocks really nd the spears at +5pts - at range they are better than meltas ! and yes if you want to run warp powers them farseers are much better - but in the newdar codex you can have only one lock council with the primary detachment - you used to have to run a farseer per council,