Adeptus Mechanicus Rumor Roundup

[40kGamer]

The oldest financial report I can dig up, from 2005, says very clearly that they are a miniature company. "What we do is make wonderful miniatures in a timeless and culturally independent way and sell them at a profit. Everything else we make and do is geared around that end. The games and stories provide the context for the miniatures, our stores are recruitment centres that simply give an opportunity to innate miniatures lovers to know themselves."

Those of us who have been around since the beginning know them as a Game Company. Back in the late 80's they definitely were about 'games supported by models'. At some point over the years they quietly changed to 'models supported by games'... subtle but distinct difference and one that creates a lot of ill will with the grognards... they are obviously free to be whatever they want but its very much a chicken & egg debate. Does the game sell the models or is it the models that sell the game? Obviously Kirby thinks the latter.

Actually OT, Mechanicus is a welcome addition and I hope they expand in weird new unconventional ways.

[Mr Mystery]

You can sell a model without a game.

But the other way around, not so much. Least wise not a miniatures game anyway.

Models lead the rules, rather than the other way round.

[40kGamer]

You can sell a model without a game.

But the other way around, not so much. Least wise not a miniatures game anyway.

Models lead the rules, rather than the other way round.

It is a subtle but telling distinction. You can sell a model without a game but you can sell a lot more models with the game. You can also sell a game, even a miniatures game, without offering the models (as the historical community proves) but there again you will sell a lot more games when that are supported by models. The two have a natural synergy. Its the perceived attitude that GW has toward these things (as presented by Mr. Kirby) that riles up the community. Don't want to go too far OT as this is one of those things that gets debated ad infinitum.

For me Mechanicus is a cool side project but if the rules suck (ie they prove to be useless in the game) there is no reason to acquire the models... though I spend 99% of my hobby time painting and converting stuff, even I have no desire to invest effort into something that is ultimately pointless rules wise.

[Eldar_Atog]

The oldest financial report I can dig up, from 2005....

Ok, let's stop right there. If you provided a document from the 80's or early 90's, then it would carry some weight. If you want to argue with Setzer on this, then you need to provide evidence from the time period he is referencing.

Excerpt from the Lexicanum entry for Games Workshop:

Games Workshop was originally an importer of American board games and RPGs. When they became publishers of the UK based role-playing magazine White Dwarf, Games Workshop created a national chain of gaming stores in the 1980s. Their publishing arm also created UK reprints of famous but expensive-to-import American RPGs.
During the 90s, following a management buyout in December 1991, the company refocussed on their most lucrative lines, namely their miniature wargame lines. The retail chain refocussed on a younger, more family-oriented market. The change of direction was a great success with a rising share price and growing profits, in spite of the fact that it lost the company much of its old, loyal fanbase. Games Workshop expanded in Europe and the USA, opening new branches and organising events. In October 1997, all UK-based operations were relocated to the current HQ in Lenton, Nottingham.
By the end of the decade, though, the company was having problems with falling profits being blamed on collectible card games.
Recently the company has been attempting to create a dual approach that will appeal to both older, loyal customers while still attracting the younger audience. This has seen the creation of initiatives such as the "Fanatic" range that supports more marginal lines with a lower cost trading model.

Wikipedia's has a bit more detailed account:

Founded in 1975 at 15 Bolingbroke Road, London, by John Peake, Ian Livingstone, and Steve Jackson (not to be confused with US citizen Steve Jackson, also a games designer), Games Workshop was originally a manufacturer of wooden boards for games such as backgammon, mancala, Nine Men's Morris, and Go[3] which later became an importer of the U.S. role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons, and then a publisher of wargames and role-playing games in its own right, expanding from a bedroom mail-order company in the process.

In order to promote their business, postal games, create a games club, and provide an alternative source for games news, the newsletter, Owl and Weasel, was founded in February 1975. This was superseded in June 1977 by White Dwarf.

From the outset, there was a clear stated interest in print regarding "progressive games," including computer gaming[4] which led to the departure of traditionalist Peake in early 1976, and the loss of GW's main source of income. However, having successfully obtained official distribution rights to Dungeons & Dragons and other TSR products in the UK, and maintaining a high profile by running games conventions, the business grew rapidly. It opened its first retail shop in April 1978.

In early 1979, Games Workshop provided the funding to found Citadel Miniatures in Newark-on-Trent. Citadel would produce the metal miniatures used in role-playing and table-top wargames. The Citadel name became synonymous with Games Workshop Miniatures, and continues to be a trademarked brand name used in association with them long after the Citadel company was absorbed into Games Workshop. For a time, Gary Gygax promoted the idea of TSR, Inc. merging with Games Workshop, until Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone backed out.

Now, I am sure there will be some people that say that a non GW document like Wikipedia carries no weight but that's just foolish. A financial document is accurate for financial data but not historical data about a company. Corporations only care about historical data being accurate when it suits them.

If you want to argue about this, then provide evidence from the 80's and 90's. Using a 2005 finanicial document is a non starter for this discussion.

[miteyheroes]

Sadly, as I said, I can't find any earlier financial documents than 2005. Although my quote does mean that the "recent" policy of models-first dates back at least 9 years.

And I don't disagree with the early history of GW as presented on Wikipedia. I just feel that the models-first policy has pretty much has driven them since the late 80s/early 90s when they had the management buyout, focused on their unique IP rather than on D&D etc (including dropping that stuff from White Dwarf), floated on the stock market, and aimed at a younger audience. Probably from 2nd ed onwards, almost definitely from 3rd ed. In my view.

But really it's impossible to prove what the management was thinking at any point, and I'll happily concede that we don't know GW's primary motivation in the 90s, but I disagree with this:

It *was* aimed at kids in the past, but that was also back when they proudly stated they made games and the models existed to support the games, not the other way around.

I don't remember them every proudly stating that. And no-one has yet shown that they did.

[Erik Setzer]

I wonder if knights will be allowed within the list.

Likely not included, because there's no need. Knights can be fielded in detachments of 1-3, and are Battle Brothers with all Imperial armies, so you can just take a single Knight as a detachment, and you can affect it with anything that boosts friendly vehicle models (no idea what the AdMech might have in that department yet, but probably no psykers, so don't expect invisible Knights unless they have something for that).

[Erik Setzer]

Sadly, as I said, I can't find any earlier financial documents than 2005. Although my quote does mean that the "recent" policy of models-first dates back at least 9 years.

[url]https://web.archive.org/web/20011104003701/http://investor.games-workshop.com/frameset.asp?PageID=2&GroupID=2[/url]

"Games Workshop is the largest and the most successful table top fantasy and futuristic battle-games company in the world. Our business is about helping mighty armies to meet headlong on the field of battle."

"At the heart of the Hobby are the millions of gamers aged 12 upwards,"

"Games Workshop Hobbyists play war games with large numbers of metal or plastic miniatures they have carefully chosen and, usually, painstakingly painted, on a table top face to face with their friends. It is a social and convivial activity loved by Hobbyists the world over."

"We publish many games systems giving potential Hobbyists a range to choose from and alternate systems for experienced gamers. We categorise these systems as 'core' (Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000)or 'specialist' (Warmaster, Mordheim, Necromunda and similar). New gamers are more likely to start with core systems."

So yeah, in 2002 they still referred to the hobby as being games, the hobbyists as gamers and not "collectors," and talked a lot about the games. Obviously they talked about the miniatures, too, but you got the point that the miniatures supported the games, not that they made games to sell miniatures.

From the investor report for that year:

[url]https://web.archive.org/web/20030429103517/http://investor.games-workshop.com/Results2002/introduction.htm[/url]

"The vast majority of our income and profits come from Games Workshop - a business that designs, manufactures, distributes and sells everything an enthusiast needs to play tabletop wargames in the fantasy world of Warhammer."

Heck, even the page on Citadel Miniatures states that people start by buying a core game and then from there go on to collect an army to play the game:

[url]https://web.archive.org/web/20020622110354/http://investor.games-workshop.com/frameset.asp?pageID=4&GroupID=2[/url]

It's also interesting in all of that to see that they admit it's a niche hobby, too.

Somewhere along the line someone apparently thought selling miniatures sounded less niche (ha!) and more "respectable," I guess. But given that even in the early 2000s they *were* still saying they made games and people bought the figures because of the games, my point stands. And these aren't statements for gamers, they're for investors.


Hate to get quite so OT, but hey, there you go. Shows in no uncertain terms that it really wasn't that long ago that they still called themselves a game company and knew that the games were the gateway to sell their other products.

Oh, and funny note: In the last archive of 2005, that page still says much the same thing:

[url]https://web.archive.org/web/20050415154650/http://investor.games-workshop.com/frameset.asp?pageID=2&GroupID=2[/url]

In 2007, you could still find an "About" page that said the same, as well as other pages talking about the various gaming events they did and the Outrider program to get people into gaming clubs and such:

[url]https://web.archive.org/web/20070420140142/http://investor.games-workshop.com/about/default.htm[/url]

Around 2008, the wording starts shifting over finally to pushing the line that they manufacture miniatures and then make the games to help sell the miniatures and so that people will have something to do with the miniatures. Compare that to the early part of the same decade, when they were talking about getting people into the games and then from there people would collect models to play the games.

It was actually a pretty quick, and recent, shift.

[ElectricPaladin]

Honestly, it doesn't matter what they think of themselves as. What matters is what their customers want to buy. As long as they continue to produce second-rate rules, customers will continue to migrate to (either entirely or - in my case - partly) to games with first-rate rules. Businesses have a very limited capacity to decide what they are for. Ultimately, it's the customers who decide what to buy and how to use it, and when the business and the customer have different ideas, the customer is the one who's going to win (because the company will either adapt, or someone else will show up and fill that niche with a product that is even closer to the customer's desires).

[Eldar_Atog]

Likely not included, because there's no need. Knights can be fielded in detachments of 1-3, and are Battle Brothers with all Imperial armies, so you can just take a single Knight as a detachment, and you can affect it with anything that boosts friendly vehicle models (no idea what the AdMech might have in that department yet, but probably no psykers, so don't expect invisible Knights unless they have something for that).

I wouldn't expect much psyker activity from the mechanicus. I would expect them to be good at repairing and upgrading mechincal equipment.. even during pitched battle.

[miteyheroes]

Interesting, thanks Erik! It's fascinating seeing what was driving their decisions...