Getting Grey Knight Terminators to work (and not die before they do anything)

[Defenestratus]

Magnets are your friends. Magnetize all weapon options (within reason). The day you start playing GK will have you fielding Psycannons and Hammers, but tomorrow may find you needing Falchions and Psilencers due to an FAQ, dataslate, or new release. Or maybe Swords will get a buff, or Halberds work better for your meta, etc.. Being able to swap out without buying more is a godsend in today's 40k.

SJ

I used to magnetize everything. Now I'm not a college student and can afford to have models of all the different options on everything but my tanks.

I need more GKT's anyways. Can't have enough of a cool model.

[jeffersonian000]

I've been out if college since the mid 90's.

Just from a personal point of view, when I replaced my metal 3rd Ed GK with plastic 5th Ed GK, 6th Ed nerf, 7th Ed balancing, and had to go through "Halberds are great!", "Halberds suck!", "Falchions suck!", "Falchions are great!", "put Hammers on everything!", "Swords are free!", etc.. Magnets made that all manageable, and still lets me hit swap as needed in today's dynamic mess of a meta.

Take Falchions, for instance. They are currently better than Halberds. They did not use to be, and might not remain so. Are they worth $50.00 US to me to swap out, or are they worth $5.00 US to swap out? Frankly, with GW's historic unreliability, I'd rather spend $5.00 on magnets than buy more problems from GW. In point of fact, the new codex required zero changes to my model collection, and that was an awesome unintentional gift from GeeDub ever!

SJ

[Defenestratus]

Take Falchions, for instance. They are currently better than Halberds. They did not use to be, and might not remain so. Are they worth $50.00 US to me to swap out, or are they worth $5.00 US to swap out? Frankly, with GW's historic unreliability, I'd rather spend $5.00 on magnets than buy more problems from GW. In point of fact, the new codex required zero changes to my model collection, and that was an awesome unintentional gift from GeeDub ever!

I outfit my models mostly based on what looks cool. Not always what is good at the time.

[Path Walker]

Magnetised models never really look as good to me, which is whats important to me, I got some Grey Knights when they first arrived in plastic when i was newly returned to the hobby, sold them when I realised they were stinkingly good in 5th edition and didn't want people to think I was "that guy", and they're awesome kits, I had loads of hammers because they look awesome and then the rest with Halbreds because thats what my original metal ones had back in the day!

[DarkLink]

Paladins are horrible, don't use them! GKT are a better buy. Also, the Psycannon is made for GK TDA, while the Incinerator is more of a PAGK thing. You are better served with GKT toting Psycannon than Pallies with a flamethrower.

SJ

Your advice otherwise seems solid, but here, you're smoking something. As someone who has played GKs extensively in major tournaments since they were Daemonhunters, Paladins are very good, and quite a but better than GKT.

[jeffersonian000]

Your advice otherwise seems solid, but here, you're smoking something. As someone who has played GKs extensively in major tournaments since they were Daemonhunters, Paladins are very good, and quite a but better than GKT.

Better is relative. On a per model basis, yep. On a per point basis, not even close. You can have almost twice as many GKT as Pallies for the same points, which nets you: same wounds, more range attacks, more CC attacks, the ability to Combat Squad, and Troop slot. GKT lose FnP and Banner, neither of which improve the chance of not getting ID'd by a pie-plate. GKT also have a bigger foot-print (from having more models), gaining them a lower chance if being wiped out. Combat Squads doubles survivability.

So yes, in a vacuum, Pallies are individually better than GKT. However, on the table, Pallies are a point sink steeling the ability to have better utility and greater survivability in your army. But that's okay, waste those points! They are your points to waste, after all.

SJ

[DarkLink]

Those are amlost entirely very narrowminded comparisons. That's the bolter and chainsword groupthink talking.

Against small arms fire, it's the same number of wounds, but Paladins have the advantage in that you lose combat effectiveness much more slowly since you can have a bunch of wounded guys running around, whilst a wounded Terminator is a dead Terminator. Paladins are also a fair bit cheaper wound for wound. Add in FNP, and against small arms fire they are significantly better.

It's true that paladins are more vulnerable to str 8 ap 2. Luckily, we have a guy named Draigo. As long as you play smart, this isn't a problem, and I say this as someone who has played Paladins in dozens of tournament games against very good players with very nasty armies.

In assault, it doesn't matter how many attacks you have in your army. Concentration of force matters. Terminators either lose combat or get whittled away or fail to do significant damage or are spread to thin to fight in assault effectively on a regular basis. Paladins, on the other hand, do not lose combat. Especially with Draigo attached. Heck, half the time with Terminators, they'll take a few casualties, I'll lose one on overwatch, then the last one or two will kill one Marine, who then flees and then the unit rallies and finish off the Terminators. Meanwhile, I'd wipe the unit with 4-5 wounded Paladins that I would have in the same circumstances. Terminators do not get it done in assault. Paladins do.

In offensive firepower, Paladins get more Psycannons for cheaper. Storm Bolters do jack all, don't waste time or points worrying about how many str 4 shots your army has. It won't do you any good against flying hive tyrants or wave serpents. Paladins are cheaper psycannons point for point, which for Grey Knight infantry shooting is about the only thing that matters. Especially now that Dreadknights are better. They handle hordes incredibly well.

Are Paladins the only unit you should run? No. But they are extremely good. You might have your theoryhammer and whatever bull**** advice you guys on Bolter and Chainsword toss around, but I've been getting extremely good results with Paladins for a long time now. Stick your head in the sand all you want on this.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

That's the bolter and chainsword groupthink talking... whatever bull**** advice you guys on Bolter and Chainsword toss around

Off topic, but what's up with BoLS and slamming other boards? ("Whineseer" etc etc.) I frequent a couple of boards, but only see these sorta comments on this one.

[DarkLink]

I dunno. It's not like there are plenty of whiners here. And plenty of people who whine about whiners. And people who whine about people whining about whiners. There is a bit more of a tightknit community amongst some of the posters here, and some individuals within that community can be a little... I dunno, egotistical is a strong word, but they definitely have their clique.

I periodically glance over at Bolter and Chainsword's GK section, just to see what's up, but the tactical advice always fails to impress me. Paladins are a case in point, there are like two guys on there who really, really hate Paladins, and they've convinced everyone else Paladins are terrible. Meanwhile, I consistently do very well running Paladins in a tournament setting, and locally we have a fairly large tournament scene with a lot of very good players so it's not like it's just me getting soft targets. Will Paladins get you to the top tables at the LVO? Probably not, but then again nothing in the GK codex will. Other than maybe Draigo in a Centstar with a couple Dreadknights. Now, there is plenty of good basic advice in there. Like I said, I agree with a lot of what jefferson said. But if he says Paladins are terrible, I will take my years of experience playing Paladins in tournaments as solid proof that Paladins are a perfectly good unit. Though the 10pt Hammer upgrade is crap.

Granted, most advice you find from random people on the internet is pretty bad. Outside of a few sites (Frontline gaming, 3++), most people really don't know what they're talking about, and even sites like 3++ will get stuck within their paradigm and don't accept that they may not always be 100% correct about everything.

[jeffersonian000]

Ironically, I'm probably the one you are referring to on BnC, since I post regularly there on the their GK forum.

As to Draigo, every advantage he gives Paladins, he also gives any other unit he is attached to, including GKTs. Not a good argument to say attaching a 200+ point model makes a 300+ point unit better than a 300+ point other unit without said 200+ point model.

As to TDA in general, I'm not worried about massed small arms fire, because either I'm playing smart enough to limit exposure, or I'm not. I find AP2 Last Blasts more annoying, with by chance splats Pallies just like GKT. Except GKT can combat squad and survive more massed fire and pie-plates than the same points in Paladins. Just say'n. Also, for the same points you spend on 10 Pallies to get 4 Psycannons, you could have allied in a Centstar, or taken 3 units of Troop GKT.

But you aren't going to take 10 Pallies, are you? You might take 6, you might even take two units of 3, but you definitely aren't going to take 10. And which unit fills your a Troop slot? 5 Strikes? 5 GKT?

Strikers are bad now, on a ppm basis when compared to GKT. About the only reason to take Strikers over GKT is because they are cheaper or you're playing a Highlander CAD.

On your luck with Pally-Stars ... cool? ... neat? ... keep up the good work?

SJ