CSM lacking something simple...

[daboarder]

I am actually a Necron!

But in general - I'd like to see CSM move away from just being Spiky Marines, so not sure the Razorback is needed. Something equivalent? By all means. But not just SpikyRazorback (Spikyback?). That's boring

the trick with SM is that they DO need to be spikey SMs, to a certain extent. They are afterall meant to be the dark reflection of the loyalists, the fate that awaits all marines if they survive long enough/ stray from the path. at the same time they have their own millitary doctrine.

In this instance, legion traits andunique wargear would be the best way of getting said feel across in my opinion

[Dave Mcturk]

I am actually a Necron!

But in general - I'd like to see CSM move away from just being Spiky Marines, so not sure the Razorback is needed. Something equivalent? By all means. But not just SpikyRazorback (Spikyback?). That's boring

b rightened my day. thanks [hedgehog ?]

but seriously csm spikes are deadly - id just run with skulls and icons - less risk to body parts !

[Defenestratus]

If you chaos players want all the SM toys, then just play SM.

Hell, as a blood angels player I'd love to field a damn heldrake. But I don't want to, because CSM are dirty gits.

[KhornishGameHen]

If you chaos players want all the SM toys, then just play SM.

Hell, as a blood angels player I'd love to field a damn heldrake. But I don't want to, because CSM are dirty gits.

Well I'd much prefer toys of our own, but if GW isn't going to do that then stealing from loyalists is the next best thing!

[Charon]

If you chaos players want all the SM toys, then just play SM.

Hell, as a blood angels player I'd love to field a damn heldrake. But I don't want to, because CSM are dirty gits.

Oh believe me... when all your toys are toned down loyalists toys anyways it doesn't make huge difference anymore.
Rhino? The same... except for chapter traits and Storm Bolter but still the same points.
Landraider? The same... just one variant, no chapter traits and no PotMS but who cares... same points anyways.
Marines? Same stats... except for chapter traits, combat squads and ATSKNF... these advantages come at a ZERO points increase.

First world problems...

[This Dave]

They also don't have any Landspeeders variants at all even though most of the designs were around since the Heresy. I'm sure some Heretek would be able to either keep the anti-grav working or else use some kind of techno-sorcery to get them flying.

I think it's just to try to differentiate Chaos from Loyalist Marines more then anything else. Why else would a Chapter that turns to Chaos immediately throw away all their Razorbacks, Storm Bolters, Landspeeders, and such and replace them with old time spiky versions? Crimson Slaughter I'm looking at you.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I'd like to see a few more loyalist toys in the Chaos toybox, but less accessible on the FOC. Say, include Razorbacks, but have them only be available as a Dedicated Transport for Chosen.

Overall, I'd like to see fewer toys in Chaos' chaff (Troops only having Flamers, Stubbers, Heavy Bolters and Autocannons for special weapons) and more in its Elites (Chosen, maybe Havocs, having Multi-meltas, Grav Guns etc).

[Power Klawz]

Razorback, no I don't think CSM need that particular vehicle, but something similar in a chaos-y way would be wonderful.

Probably something with less guns, more speed and an assault ramp. 6 man capacity that you can jam 3 termies into if you want, or just a beefy squad of chosen/possessed/zerkers etc. Give it a similar aesthetic to the daemon engines and unleash the hounds of khorne. (or possible Slaanesh, I guess. pfft.)

I do think that CSM are lacking in the transport vehicle options department. They've got the brown lunch bag of transports in the rhino and they've got the 60 gallon beer cooler of the schizo land raider. They need some options on the land raider and an in-between transport. Not saying they need redeemers or crusaders or whatnot, but maybe some more chaos themed options. I mean we've got hades autocannons and ectoplasma, don't see why those can't be bolted to a land raider. Imagine a triple hades autocannon land raider! or tossing out 3 ap2 plasma blasts a turn! Seems like a lot of missed opportunities in that chassis.

The "chaos razorback" I think should be a one trick pony armament wise with some speed and assault capability. Maybe something like a toned down baleflame thrower in the turret (str5, ap4 maybe), or the aforementioned hades autocannons (twin linked, of course) or ectoplasma cannons with no further options beyond a pintle mounted twin-linked bolter.

Just daydreaming though. le sigh

[DWest]

They also don't have any Landspeeders variants at all even though most of the designs were around since the Heresy. I'm sure some Heretek would be able to either keep the anti-grav working or else use some kind of techno-sorcery to get them flying.

I think it's just to try to differentiate Chaos from Loyalist Marines more then anything else. Why else would a Chapter that turns to Chaos immediately throw away all their Razorbacks, Storm Bolters, Landspeeders, and such and replace them with old time spiky versions? Crimson Slaughter I'm looking at you.

The problem is, 40k isn't a roleplaying game- the army list in the back of the book represents a Chaos force, not a we're-changing-into-Chaos force. Likewise, bits of more rare technology (grav guns, landspeeders, etc) are going to be the first things the now-heretic warband gets rid of, firstly because those bits of gear are going to break down the soonest without access to the Chapter's old logistics train, and secondly because while those things still work, they can be sold to people who want to collect Imperial tech in exchange for resources needed to keep the warband afloat. This is also assuming that the Chaos gods don't do something really crazy to the heretics, like rip out their souls and use them to re-animate a bunch of their Legionary forefathers from one of the old Heresy battlegrounds, in which case their goodies got left behind anyhow.

[Lunchbox739]

[QUOTE=Charon;472094]There are a few small things that could be done to get CSM right:

1) Legion Traits
2) Kult upgrades
3) Re-evaluate Marks (+1I vs +1T)
4) Get rid of Cultists and change the Allies Chart to be Battle Brothers with IG and Knights.
5) Fix standard CSM

I agree with this, except the getting rid of cultists part, Cultists were single handedly one of the best things ever added to CSM. Could chaos benefit from having razorbacks added to their options? Sure but if we are going to go that route you are just as well to paint your army up any way you like and call it a counts as space marine army and just play the chapter tactics that match your scheme the closest.

Chaos needs a basic codex laid out like the Space Marine codex but with very specific differences to set the two armies apart and still have the swiss army knife of playable options that CSM should have but don't at this time.

my personal issues with CSM are as follows:

1.) Point costs aren't in line with what you get in most units. Example: A chaos lord that takes up an HQ slot has to purchase a 25 point upgrade to get a mere 4+ invulnerable save when space marines have elites and fast attack units that can pay 15 points to gain a 3+ invulnerable save. Hardly a fair tradeoff there. If given the choice between Sigil of Corruption for or Storm Shields who wouldn't take storm shields?
2.) As stated previously, CSM doesn't have the vast transport options that most other armies have to deliver troops into the fray without getting into Forge World books, namely IA13.
3.) Standard power armor marines are a waste of points in most cases...NOT ALL...most. Typhus with a mob of plague zombies is just too good for the points, although it does get boring after awhile.
4.) Put Heldrakes back to pre 7th edition stats...with the only nerf being that its firing arc is limited to 180 degrees forward. Heldrakes were too good but the nerf they got hit with was too much.
5.) Legion Tactics....why aren't there any? pages 77 and 78 of the Space marine codex throw out chapter tactics for 7 chapters of space marines... GW couldnt hash out specific legion traits for the big 4 at least?
6.) Champion of Chaos is near and far the worst special rule to ever grace a CSM codex. It should get the big ugly axe.
7.) More csm units need a "and they shall know no fear" type special rule. 10000 years in the warp, you would think morale checks would be a thing of the past, since you really cant be any more damned
8.) Certain units in the CSM codex need a special rule that allows assault from Deep Strike or perhaps an option to purchase that special rule across several units. Existing in the warp for 10K years, it just seems natural that some units might gain an affinity for stepping through the warp. This would be great for an otherwise useless unit like Mutilators.
9.) Having a complete plastic line of models would be fun to have.... to date... the only way you are getting cultists is a 5 pack with no champion, buy the dark vengeance set over and over or ebay. Staple units like Havocs are in finecast with no options other then what is shown on the front of the box. This is a general problem with GW across the board and isnt just CSMs.

I could go on for days here but the overall point is pretty simple.... CSM lacks the utility that makes the competitive level players want to play the army. They could go as far as overhauling a general codex and then releasing quality supplements for the different legions. They just need to have some substance and actual thought put into them and not the hashed together garbage they keep throwing out like Crimson Slaughter and Black Legion. Those 2 books that could have been so much more if the writers would have taken the time to go the extra mile. Does anyone truly want to pay 50 dollars for 60 pages of fluff and 2 pages of rules? That is ridiculous in its own right....