CSM lacking something simple...

[TheNeverThere]

I think what CSM needs are Land Raider variants. I mean, We can come up with Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Heldrakes, and Defilers, but we can't figure out how to swap some lascannons out for our apparently ubiquitous autocannons for some increased capacity? What the hell?

[Erasmus]

I am in favor of a chaos razorback, I think the regular space marines have enough other unique units and rules now that introducing stuff like razorbacks and multi-meltas to CSM without compromising the differences between the two. Also razorbacks aren't as big of a deal as they were in fifth, and chaos players could really use the option. I'd say give it different weapon options though, like i'd trade las-plas for a hades autocannon (that would be crazy)

[Harry Paratesteez]

Once upon a time back in second edition, CSM could purchase any vehicles that were available to Imperials at a 50% increase in points cost.
That seemed like a fairly decent way of representing the availability of loyalist weapons.

[The Madman]

I'd rather see some variations in our tanks then just adding a razorback (I'd like to see the dreadclaw though), I mean we've had the one land raider for how many editions now? are you telling me that chaos has never tried to add heavy bolter sponsons to it, or perhaps baleflamers or Kai Guns (Hate-fueled heavy bolter from 3rd edition). It would be nice to have a difference in our patterns and would even propose we had a new vehicle kit that mimics the heresy vehicles but with chaos trimming and unique variants.

[Charistoph]

I'd rather see some variations in our tanks then just adding a razorback (I'd like to see the dreadclaw though), I mean we've had the one land raider for how many editions now? are you telling me that chaos has never tried to add heavy bolter sponsons to it, or perhaps baleflamers or Kai Guns (Hate-fueled heavy bolter from 3rd edition). It would be nice to have a difference in our patterns and would even propose we had a new vehicle kit that mimics the heresy vehicles but with chaos trimming and unique variants.

My point at the beginning.

An IFV would be nice for Chaos Marines to have, but does it have to be a Razorback?

And every time I think of Land Raiders and Chaos in the same afternoon, that does come up about their reliance on a very basic version.

[Arkhan Land]

And while the Razorback can mobe on his own ans still has these weapons, your rhino is around 217 points and you compare that to ONE 75 points Razorback instead of THREE of them.

I don't think Razorbacks would do anything. Drop Pods would be a good step in the right direction.

if you want to compare raw sqauds then do 75 and 70, yr still gettin bolter shots outa ports versus nada for razorback.

I think it really depends on what you want to do if your looking at them one on one, i like the SM option for armor but for troops the CSM choice is the most choosey.


as an example heres another great matchup

75 to 57

TLPGLC versus HL+Combi+Combi

=

1 HS Strength Shot + Rapid Fire Plas 1/2 shots! Poppin all kinds of tanks!

vs

1 Mid Strength Blast Shot + 2 Bolters mounted everything soul blaze!
(add in fireport shots and thats two more bolters, so within 12" yr sendin out 8 shots)

with the marine jam yr always only torchin 3 jerks, always buy stormbolter so maybe 5 but then yr pushing the price barrier up.
versus the CSM with 6 plus whoever they torch themselves, for 2 points more than the basic razorback.

now personally in my opinion the real winner is the inquisitorial Razor with HBs and a SB then adding psybolt ammo. smokin deal for 55.

I Love both these options, for each army. I usually run only Razors with my SMs (thankfully I have 4 Plas/Las turrets from the good ole days) and I usually run Havoc Launchers on 3-4 CSM Rhinos with some extra combi/combi-bolter tricks.


If I really had to pick one thing to set them apart, it would be adding a crack missile option to the havoc launcher. then yr pushing closer to the Las strength but at twin linked which is a lot more threatening to higher armour and can even crack that tipytop av 14. but then again SM vehicles already have hunter killers... so we start up that one

[Charon]

if you want to compare raw sqauds then do 75 and 70, yr still gettin bolter shots outa ports versus nada for razorback.

You highlightet how the Razorback and the Havoc rhino are kinda equal because the Rhino has 2 fire points.
To get the 2 Plasma Guns you factored in, you need 10 (!) CSM inside the Rhino (which means 8 Bolters wont get any chance to shoot) while the Razorback has equal shooting capabilities WITHOUT any model inside.

[Caitsidhe]

My particular favorite is that CSM seem incapable of mastering the basic technology of the shield. What is worse they apparently have religious prohibitions against salvaging them from the battlefield.

[Arkhan Land]

You highlightet how the Razorback and the Havoc rhino are kinda equal because the Rhino has 2 fire points.
To get the 2 Plasma Guns you factored in, you need 10 (!) CSM inside the Rhino (which means 8 Bolters wont get any chance to shoot) while the Razorback has equal shooting capabilities WITHOUT any model inside.

I only factored in the sqaud in the parenthesis parts as a hypothetical to taking a transport without the sqaud, on a CSM Rhino you can take two combi bolters on the rhino itself. not talkin the sqaud there, thats where you get the 4 bolter shots.
and like I said this is hypothetically if in an unbound game I guess you take a transport con nadie

[Charon]

so how many weapons do you fire if you moved?