Abaddon's 40K Bolter Is Rubbish

[Sly]

Great post, Yorkie. As has been evidenced, there may be a bone to pick with details here and there, but overall a brilliant piece.

[AndrewDart]

The OP is a very well-written argument, but I must concede that it is simple a strongly worded opinion. The very nature of the warp could (or just as easily couldn't) make weapons or even soldiers persist without need of fuel, maintenence, etc. Magic warp ammunition could just as easily manifest in daemonic ammunition stores as it could be that chainaxes don't run on fuel at all - but rather pure unadulterated hatred (!).

I am in 100% awe of the thoroughness of the initial post, and admire the devotion to the genre, but I wouldn't call it more than a very specific theory as to why a weapon's stats are worse in 40k as compared to 30k.

The convenient thing about Chaos is that the argument that "the warp did it" is usually the most accurate and credible. It's definitely a deus ex machina situation - but one that doesn't cheapen the genre, IMO.

[Daveisdvd]

I enjoyed the article a lot. Very entertaining and pretty spot on personality wise as far as I'm concerned. I still think there's some room for complexity and depth to the way War bands function. If you've read the Blood Gorgon novel you'll get a very good feel for how a traitor Chapter could still work.

Also agree with Andrew above that the warp can make bolters that don't use real ammo, they could function on hatred or be powered by the tears of recently murdered children. Whatever the case I do agree that for chaos to really threaten the imperium again will be difficult but we'll see where the fluff takes us as things unfold this year

[miteyheroes]

I love this post. Definitely feels very ADB influenced. As someone who loves the Night Lords trilogy and the new Talon of Horus book, this is a goooood thing.

[YorkNecromancer]

Dont ever make the mistake of comparing real world belives in "imaginary friends" and some pice of fiction where these "imaginary friends" truly exist in every way.

Okay.

As long as you don't make the mistake of assuming the Chaos gods treat all their servants equally.

That was a joke, BTW.

Look Charon, I think what this is? Is a case of Depending Upon The Writer.

You know how according to Matt Ward, the Ultramarines were the greatest of all chapters? And how according to Dan Abnett, they're just one of many - a competent, decent one, but not absurdly so?

Every writer has things they think are cool. Some people love OTT, super-cinematic fights. Others find more joy in grounded realism. Compare, if you will, Marvels' 'Avengers' to 'Batman Begins'. now, ignoring the merits of each, I think we can definitely agree that both are enjoyable films. But - and here's the thing - for different reasons. I liked 'Avengers' because it was full-on, four colour superhero action; I liked the giant space aliens, and the silly stuff, and even Loki's absurd costume, which - somehow - was cool as hell.

On the other hand, I liked 'Batman Begins' for it's dedication to realism. Because it took an idea as completely stupid as Batman (and whatever you might think, Batman is, at heart a pretty crazy idea) and asked one simple question: 'If Batman was real; really, actually real? How would he exist?'

Neither is a bad film. You may prefer one. You may prefer the other. You may hate them. But taken alone, ignoring everything else (comics, sequels, reboots, yadda yadda...) both tell a valid story well.

Your arguments about Chaos? You want 'Avengers'. You want big, colourful action. You want to escape into high fantasy. you get joy from the sheer turbo-powered fun of it all.

I want 'Batman Begins'. I want gritty realism; I want a real sense that actual stuff from real life plays a role. I don't want to escape. I want to deconstruct the idea. I want to take it apart and explore what makes it work. I don't get joy from the explosion. I get joy from understanding.

So you're not wrong. You can have those lunatics you talk about. But you know what?

I don't think I'm wrong either.

Here's the bottom line: all this stuff?

IT'S MADE UP.

Which means that the only objective Truth is the stuff that resonates for us personally. You want those crazed, super-powered villains? Cool. Have those. Just don't force me to have 'em, because I don't like them as much as my more grounded, believable ones. I want Cultists who are more human. I want them scared and afraid and desperate, because the more human they are, the more interesting they become.

I'm a middle-aged man. I don't want stories about heroes and villains. I want stories about humans.

Should those be the only stories that are told? OF COURSE NOT.

40K is a BIG fictional universe, Charon. It's big enough for your ideas, mine, and everyone else's besides. Or to put it another way: why limit anyone's creativity? As I said in the very first post here, I just wanted to explain why I thought Chaos was cool. You disagree? You think I'm wrong? FAIR ENOUGH! It's only my opinion. I think it makes the game more interesting, but then, I also like slow-cooked chicken, and not everyone else does, so who am I to say what's right and wrong?

Just enjoy the game you want to enjoy, yeah?

An easy (and quite reasonable response) to his entire argument is: The Warp prevents decay and/or augments chaos personnel and materials.

You're not wrong. The Warp is obvious the ultimate Deus Ex Machina/plot device/plot armour.

But it's a bit crap and reductive though, though, isn't it?



I mean, as far as storytelling devices go. It also suggests that servants of Chaos don't have to put any effort in; Chaos just does stuff for them, which is kind of counter to the idea of good narrative. They just win, 'because'. Which reduces the agency of Chaos' servants, dumbing them down. Seriously, if they never have to put any effort in because Chaos just looks after them, what value do any of their achievements have? Coastal erosion destroys towns, and so do hurricanes, but neither need servants. By making the Warp the ultimate band aid that takes away all the ouchies from its servants, that kind of diminishes them. It reduces them to boring invincible villains who never need to work to accomplish their goals. They just accomplish them Because Chaos Wills It, rather than through any effort of their own. If it wasn't them, it'd just be some other raindrop.

I'd rather Chaos felt more like they had achievements of their own; that they were well-rounded, three-dimensional characters with a working, real-world structure for their existence, rather than just reducing them to Skeletor and the baddies from Snake Mountain. They deserve better than that.

[tanfew]

One word to describe this write up-

Awesome.

[Charon]

I think the main problem is that you focus on realism too much and dismiss the "fantasy side" completely.
Chaos (as an army concept) without fantasy is just not possible. You can have your mundane Renegades, there is certainly place for them.
But I think the majority wants to have that colorful magic warp shennanigans... thats why you pick chaos. If you want space marines, go and pick them up. Make up your chapter thats has a dispute with the mechanicum and you are ready to go.
Thats why a lot of people get alienated by the "Renegades" concept.
You have an army that consists of pre-heresy armor, pre-heresy tech and pre-heresy vehicles to portrait a Warband that defected 100 years ago. Not gonna work.
Just take a close look at the crimson slaughter/crimson sabres. The only difference between them is their mindset + their ties to the warp.
So why would they suddenly wear armor from a time they didnt even exist, create weapons from this time and blast all their current equipment to pieces?

It also suggests that servants of Chaos don't have to put any effort in; Chaos just does stuff for them, which is kind of counter to the idea of good narrative.

Which is not true as the basic idea of chaos (like Daemons in nearly all fantasy settings and literature) is that they are vastly powerful in their dimension but need agents to deal with reality. To create circumstances for them to break into reality.
Chaos agents always try to:
1) open warpgates
2) Summon mighty daemon lords
3) cast planets/star systems into the warp

They corrupt governments/SM chapters/Imperial guard/..., summon lesser daemons, sacrifice a the population of a hive,... to finally achieve 1,2 and 3. And if they achieve their goal, there is a possibility to get to their final goal... unlimited power and immortality as a daemon prince.

[YorkNecromancer]

I think the main problem is that you focus on realism too much and dismiss the "fantasy side" completely.

Only a problem for you, buddy. Like I said, it's an issue of taste.

I think the majority

You remember in the first post when I said this was just my opinion? There's an implication there that I wasn't speaking for the majority, or about them. Let the majority do or have what it wants; doesn't bother me.

So why would they suddenly wear armor from a time they didnt even exist, create weapons from this time and blast all their current equipment to pieces?

Buy and read FFG's 'Black Crusade'. The details are in there. It's a great game, well thought-out, and justifies literally all of your complaints.

Or, you know, you could just ignore it and go on complaining that no-one's adequately explained it for you.

I mean, the real reason why they suddenly wear armor from a time they didnt even exist, create weapons from this time and blast all their current equipment to pieces?

[Path Walker]

The warp works both ways, there will be traitors who have felt like the Long War is only a few centuries in, as the warp makes time run slower for them, the Crimson Sabres may have only disapeared 100 years ago to the Imperium, that doesn't mean they've only been fighting as pawns of the Dark Gods for 100 years, they might feel they've been there for millenia, their armour warping into what the gods consider Space Marine armour should look like, unable to collect ammo for their newer weapons, refiting razorbacks to rhinos to carry more of them into battle, a lot, or not much, can happen in 100 years in the Warp.

[Mr Mystery]

Now I feel the need to do my 'Loyalist, honest' Alpha Legion that I've been pondering.

Use the CSM rules, but using Loyalist/FW models. No outward signs of corruption. Keep it neat. Keep it tidy.

Idea being the Alpha Legion would be all too aware just how ignorant most of the Imperium is. Most Planetary Governors, let alone Imperial Citizens will have seen an actual Astartes, and this force exploits that. Infiltrate the planet, incite the population with tales of how the Governor and his spods are actually traitor, and get a civil war going on, destabilising the region.

Cue 10 man squads, and lots of PDF troops lead by 'Chaplains' (not Dark Apostles, honest). Minimal Daemonic stuff (though given the almost equal tech ignorance, I dare say I can squeeze in a Forgefiend).

To me it's something the Alpha Legion would most definitely do. Does it matter that they don't carry Codex issue equipment? Nope. Nobody is going to be in a position to say 'now I see you have Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW.....I happen to know for a fact you shouldn't have all three', because of that fantastic Imperial Ignorance!