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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by YorkNecromancer View Post
    Although, that does make a final, interesting moral to the whole idea of pursuing that goal: that losing all your humanity actually does diminish you. Taking Voldemort as the example again (because he's a useful parallel), he's phenomenally powerful, and in his essentially 'ascended' form (no nose, no sign of humanity, seven Horcruxes = effective immortality), he's still not that powerful.

    It's probably why Abaddon never went daemon prince; he can achieve more damage as he is.
    No not really, the diminishment of and ascended marine shouldnt be a "power" thing, they are diminished because they become slaves to their gods, utterly beholden to them. Abbadon hasn't been offered daemonhood by the combined gods due to the whole belakor thing and also does not want to be beholden to anyone
    Morbid Angels:http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?7100-Morbid-angel-WIP
    I probably come across as a bit of an ***, don't worry I just cannot abide stupid.

  2. #22

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    Love the story of Helikaon the Mourner. Perfect summary of why it sucks to be a Chaos Champion: no matter how powerful you become, no matter how well you can play each Ruinous Power off against the other, no matter how many toys you acquire or worlds you seize, you'll always stand alone.

    Utterly, utterly alone.

    the diminishment of and ascended marine shouldnt be a "power" thing, they are diminished because they become slaves to their gods, utterly beholden to them. Abbadon hasn't been offered daemonhood by the combined gods due to the whole belakor thing and also does not want to be beholden to anyone
    Oh, I know.

    I just think there's something nice about it thematically; all that work, all those millenia so sure that the Emperor was mistaken, that you were right... And you were, just not the way you thought.

    Yeah, Chaos is neither a plaything nor a friend. It's an abusive spouse who lies and lies and keeps on lying until one day, you're lying dying on the kitchen floor wondering what you ever did wrong. And that's the joke: you did everything right, and it didn't matter anyway.
    Last edited by YorkNecromancer; 01-17-2015 at 04:01 PM.
    AUT TACE AUT LOQUERE MELIORA SILENTIO

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by YorkNecromancer View Post
    Which is why the Codex should reflect this; CSM shouldn't be the 'awesome melee' marines; they should be the 'disposable' marines. Forge World's 'Tyrant Legion' list did this whole thing perfectly.
    Problem with disposable marines is that you cant assign any realistic point costs to them. The spectrum is too narrow.


    Exactly why there should be a point drop for twenty man squads. You should be fielding hundreds of marines, of whom, maybe ten make it out of the battle alive. Where did those hundreds of marines come from? Well, they're not Veterans Of The Long War; they're victims, recruited and forcibly modified into Chaos Marines, through tainted marine organs.
    Even if you drop their points in groups of 20 they are still weaker than a marine force of equal points. Not because of their stats but just because you have a big clumped up unit that can get no mission objectives done, is easy to break and cant get anywhere on the table.
    The Veterans of the Long War rule should be significantly more powerful to represent this, and it should increase the unit's points significantly. Basically, it should go:

    VOTLW>Astartes Veterans=Chosen>Loyalist Marines>CSM, who are roughly = in power terms to Loyalist Scout Marines>Guard>Cultists

    Regular CSM should be closer to SoB in terms of power, while VOTLW should be waaaaaaay beyond regular veterans.

    Remember my whole thing about how one army is competent at the top and crap at the bottom? I get the feeling you only heard the bad part of that. Chaos Marines who survive should be utterly, utterly beyond regular marines for that exact reason.
    Does not translate into tabletop. Veterans are shunned for the same reason. You can have an ungodly WS10 I10 S10 T5 A10 chaos space marine vet for just 40 points per model. Dirt cheap. He also dies as fast to a plasma gun as an imperial solider. Elites do not work in this game - every weapon is an equalizer.
    Thats also the reason why big squads do not work. Difference between a 20 men CSM squad and 4x5 men CSM squads? A wyvern battery can kill the former in one turn while it needs 4 turns to kill the latter. 20 CSM waste a lot of shots when they try to get rid of these 5 IG vets, 4x5 do not.
    It does not matter how you price them (unless you price them extremely unreasonable low) small squads will ALWAYS come out on top even if they are far more expensive pointwise.
    You didn't pay attention. I said that the elites keep the best stuff for themselves. So yes, the standard CSM get nowt... But the Terminators get it all.

    What I would propose is that Chaos Termintor shooting should be exactly as terrible as it currently is. However, their melee ability should be ungodly. I would propose two ways to solve the fact it's not. Either:
    a.) They can assault from Deep Strike (which in this case is daemonic power, rather than teleporters or
    b.) Land Raiders as dedicated transports for Terminators ONLY. Because that's what Land Raiders should be for. It's fluffy, and it fits with the theme of 'the bosses keep the best stuff for themselves'.
    As I pointed out Elite Versions of units do not work in this game. Take a look at Darkangels.
    LR is a dedicated Transport for Terminator. But as Chaos does only get the standard LR (same price but no PotMS) you cant even put in more than 5 amazing terminators.
    As it should be. As I've stated, I don't believe bog standard Chaos Marines should be the equal of the Astartes; they lack the tools and the training, so they compensate with numbers, and should coss less points.

    Chaos Marine veterans should UTTERLY outclass regular marines, because of the power and experience they have accumulated.

    Both of these ideas fit with my initial statement. I think the thing here, is that you believe regular CSM are the equal of regular Loyalists and I don't, for the reasons outlined in my initial post. I think if regular CSM became the equal of regular Loyalists, it would kind of ruin the army, because Chaos should be an army of extremes, due to its highly Darwinian nature.

    It shouldn't need stating, but they follow CHAOS: they shouldn't be standardised across the whole army!
    As I already said, does not work out.


    Again, which is an issue of the codex.

    Although, that does make a final, interesting moral to the whole idea of pursuing that goal: that losing all your humanity actually does diminish you. Taking Voldemort as the example again (because he's a useful parallel), he's phenomenally powerful, and in his essentially 'ascended' form (no nose, no sign of humanity, seven Horcruxes = effective immortality), he's still not that powerful.
    It's probably why Abaddon never went daemon prince; he can achieve more damage as he is.
    Actually he is THAT powerful. And a daemon prince is an awful lot more powerful than any mortal around. Thats why they want to ascend. True immortality and nearly godlike power.
    Nobody knows why Abaddon has not ascended yet and its not his choice. No CSM can ascend or deny it just by choice, Chaos decides if you are worthy which can be rather... hmm.. chaotic. You can turn a daemon prince for slaugthering 3 farmers on a backwater planet because your god did like the number and how their clothing and blood matched with the color of the soil and you can get ignored despite having enslaved a whole sector and singlehandedly slain 20 SM chaptermasters at once because it was so... mundane.
    Last edited by Charon; 01-17-2015 at 04:07 PM.

  4. #24
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    I think you guys are forgetting that theres no such thing as a disposable marine.
    These are for the most part the guys that BUILT the imperium, they aren't nor should they be, push overs.
    They have 10,000 years of experience in warfare, they are death on legs
    Morbid Angels:http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?7100-Morbid-angel-WIP
    I probably come across as a bit of an ***, don't worry I just cannot abide stupid.

  5. #25

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    I think you guys are forgetting that theres no such thing as a disposable marine.
    These are for the most part the guys that BUILT the imperium, they aren't nor should they be, push overs.
    They have 10,000 years of experience in warfare, they are death on legs
    I kind of think that should change; like I say, make the Veterans of the Long War rule utterly terrifying (Ld10, maybe increase BS, WS, option to buy Artificer armour, Furious Charge, Rage, Rampage for some outrageous cost), because they are the oldest, most experienced, and clearly most dangerous of all marines. They should be the true former Astartes, along with the Cult Marines (who should all have VOTLW as standard). Make Veterans of the Long War into the equal of something like GK Paladins, only without the Terminator armour; when they get the Terminator Armour? They have no Imperial equivelant. They've gone from 'Marine' to 'Force of Nature'.

    HOWEVER, regular CSM should be a bit like Kor Phaeron: captured humans forcibly altered into Marines in order to build up the numbers of the warband. They've got the implants, but not the experience or equipment.

    It would be an excellent way to differentiate the CSM codex, rather than just having it be another 3+ Marine army book. Every Chaos player gets to have those Movie Marine-level Chaos monsters they dream of, but they don't completely unbalance the game, or become too commonplace. Which they wouldn't be, given how few of them would be left after 10,000 years of hard living in the warp.

    Not to mention, there IS past precedent for this kind of army. The Tyrant's Legion list from Forge World is almost exactly like this.

    As a side note, I'm fairly sure that to any Chaos Lord, at the end of the day, EVERYONE is disposable, Marine or not. People are just tools, assets to get the job done and little more.
    Last edited by YorkNecromancer; 01-17-2015 at 04:31 PM.
    AUT TACE AUT LOQUERE MELIORA SILENTIO

  6. #26

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    HOWEVER, regular CSM should be a bit like Kor Phaeron: captured humans forcibly altered into Marines in order to build up the numbers of the warband. They've got the implants, but not the experience or equipment.
    Kor Phaeron (same like Luthor) is an odd EXCEPTION. They are special because they are no space marines. CSM are fully grown Marines. Dead Sky, Black Sun does describe how some of the Iron Warriors get their new Recruits. Its all in the Fluff.

    like I say, make the Veterans of the Long War rule utterly terrifying (Ld10, maybe increase BS, WS, option to buy Artificer armour, Furious Charge, Rage, Rampage for some outrageous cost), because they are the oldest, most experienced, and clearly most dangerous of all marines.
    And die to a Plasma gun like every other standard marine.
    Stacking up special rules is absolutely worthless. We already have this. The dreaded Warp Talons. 5 Million special rules, power claws, jump packs.... and nobody ever uses them because they die like flies. You are suggesting more overpriced and useless units... the codex is full of them already.

    Not to mention, there IS past precedent for this kind of army. The Tyrant's Legion list from Forge World is almost exactly like this.
    Interesting that you mention this.
    The Tyrants Legion is nothing like you describe it. The Tyrants Legion is SPACE MARINES with chapter traits, ATSKNF, Combat Tactics and allied imperial guard tanks and troops. Maybe the one or the odder odd spcial rule but in its core its a pure SM + AM in one AOP thing.
    Last edited by Charon; 01-17-2015 at 05:37 PM.

  7. #27
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    I'm just gonna leave this here:

    [url]https://d1u1p2xjjiahg3.cloudfront.net/3b3d5668-4982-440a-9306-70c1342dd45a.jpg[/url]

  8. #28

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    I like how one of the core of the arguments about why Chaos is poor is Rogue Trader RPG starting money.

    Never mind the fact that 99.99999999999% of the Rogue Trader rpg is about acquiring (stealing) stuff from people...

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by daboarder View Post
    Nah york just lies and breathes the hobby like the rest of us. I dare say this has been stewing in his head for a while now
    cough cough

    the rest of us

    cough cough


    to york, great read!

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhan Land View Post
    cough cough

    the rest of us

    cough cough


    to york, great read!
    was meant to be lives* in that statement
    Morbid Angels:http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?7100-Morbid-angel-WIP
    I probably come across as a bit of an ***, don't worry I just cannot abide stupid.

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