Comparing 40K Tactical Terminators to 30K Tyrant Siege Cataphractii

[YorkNecromancer]

So the Internets says that Tactical Terminators are No Damn Good at the moment. Which, you know, pretty much fair enough. 2+ isn't really enough to make them work.

In HH book 3, the Iron Warriors get Tyrant Siege Terminator Squads.

These things are god*amned bananas. They have Wrecker as an inherent rule, and all of them have Cyclone Missile Launchers by default (yes, every single model has them) and can fire them AND their combi-bolters in the same Shooting phase. They can't overwatch since they wear Cataphractii armour, but that's pretty much their only limitation. And all this for +33% of standard Tactical Terminators.

Now, here's the thing:

If that unit was the 'standard' Tactical Terminator unit of the Astartes, would they become viable again?

Thoughts?

[Bob821]

Sounds good to me. I've not used Terminators apart from THSS equipped units since 5th addition.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I could get behind giving them some variant of Sternguard ammo. Make their Storm Bolters scary.

[Dave Mcturk]

I could get behind giving them some variant of Sternguard ammo. Make their Storm Bolters scary.

that sounds like a good idea. weve been trialling giving them two wounds against all shooting, except if nurgled

[Chris*ta]

It does seem a bit odd that veteran marines can wear power armour and have Sternguard ammo, or wear Terminator armour and have regular ammo.

For that matter, I'd like to see the sergeant with a Relic Blade rather than a Power Sword. It makes no sense he can have a Relic Blade wearing Power Armour but not Terminator Armour, especially because the Power Sword is pretty much a downgrade over the standard TA Power Fist. I'd love to see the reaction of a newly-promoted Sergeant when he finds out he's got to hand in his Power Fist ...

[modelguyicmt]

As normal Terminator Squad with the following additions-

Sergeant may take items from the Terminator Weapons list, and may additionally replace his Power Sword with a Relic Blade for +10. May replace Storm Bolter with a Plasma Pistol or Grav Pistol +10.

One additional model out of every five may replace his Storm Bolter with any Combi-Bolter +5, including a Combi-Bolter with Astartes Auxiliary Grenade Launcher +15, which has the following attack- Hellfire Grenade- RNG-24" S-1 AP-4 Assault 1, Blast, Poisoned 2+, One Use Per Game.

The entire unit may upgrade their Bolters to carry Special Issue Ammunition, for +5 points per model with a Bolt weapon.

Any model may exchange its Power Fist for a Power Sword for a 10 point reduction in cost.

A Heavy Flamer may be exchanged for a Multi Melta or Twin Linked Flamer for free, a Twin Linked Melta for +5, or a Twin Linked Plasmagun for +10.

Crux Terminatus- Terminators have a 5+ Invulnerable Save and additionally have Toughness 5 against all attacks that do not cause Instant Death against their normal Toughness of 4. This applies for all models in Terminator Armour.

____

How's that? Increase by +5 for the new Toughness? 45 points base, 50 for Special Ammo, 40 if you take off the Power Fists. Nurgle Termies are 37 points without Special Ammo and without the I.D clause for Toughness. They also get Power Fists for only 7 points, but they also have access to infinite Lightning Claws and Combi Weapons.

On second thought, the Toughness increase is too much, all Termies in the game would need to be revamped, and Nurgle Termies would be left out in the cold.

[Chris*ta]

Sergeant may take items from the Terminator Weapons list, and may additionally replace his Power Sword with a Relic Blade for +10. May replace Storm Bolter with a Plasma Pistol or Grav Pistol +10.

I don't think Terminators should have access to pistols -- it would give them an extra attack in H-to-H, and it's something the designers are (relatively) conscientious in avoiding.

[Haighus]

Yeah, I agree that pistols should be avoided, and for the additional heavy weapons, why not just use the examples given by FW? Multi-melta and plasma blaster (R18", S7 AP2 assault 2 IIRC) in addition to the heavy flamer, cyclone missile launcher and assault cannon. I feel like having twin-flamers feels redundant when there is a heavy flamer. The option to switch out any stormbolter for a combi-weapon would be good though, along with the option to upgrade to a relic blade for the Sergeant. Full access to special issue ammo doesn't feel quite right, as some ammunition types just feel like asking for disaster with a stormbolter (vengeance rounds for example) so maybe just the option to purchase hellfire rounds for the squad is enough.

When thinking about it, instead of having the flexibility of sternguard, maybe terminators would have to choose one ammunition type at the beginning of the game for the squad (can change between games) to represent the difficulty of changing magazines in terminator armour and the large magazine size of a stormbolter. (still no vengeance rounds though, spraying a round that is likely to blow up in the weapon from a twin-barrelled SMG designed for rate of fire just seems stupid).

[Katharon]

You're also forgetting that Cataphractii Terminator armour has a better invulnerable save and they are armed with combi-bolters, not storm bolters, which makes them twin-linked.

[Mr Mystery]

Still not sure why people don't rate tactical Terminators.

They're a pretty flexible and resilient squad, capable tackling all but the hardest of targets.

They've got the Dakka to thin out infantry, and Powerfists on everyone is very welcome. Add in a Cyclone or Assault Cannon and they improve still.

Anything that can take them out still has it's work cut out. In HTH, single botched roll and those Powerfists will be deep up your chuff before you can blink. Shooting? That's a lot of dedicated anti-tank which may have better targets elsewhere.

They're a useful gap filler unit for the army because of the above.

Am I missing something here?