Comparing 40K Tactical Terminators to 30K Tyrant Siege Cataphractii

[marful]

So, is the problem with Terminators their resiliency or the firepower they bring for their points? (Or a combination thereof)?


What if Termies were toughness 5 or had 2 wounds or something?
What if they had a heavy bolter (or similar) instead of a storm bolter? (Or even access to special ammo?)


Would these things make tactical terminators viable?


Or is it a case of the Storm Shield being just too good of an item?

[Charon]

In some ways, terminators are a very well designed unit, because the time they really shine is in super dense terrain, where the enemy has limited firepower, limited capacity to choose what to engage the terminators with and reduced mobility; coming down a short corridor, there are only so many enemies that can fit into the corridor to oppose the terminators, and at this point, the terminators can destroy unit after unit. This matches the fluff of terminators; boarding actions and other heavily dense terrain is what the armour was designed for, so fluffwise, they fill their intended roll fairly well. Unfortunately it isn't a situation they can capitalise on often.

Even in this scenario, the terminators will get stuck moving through or around the same dense terrain, thus losing more precious game turns.
The more dense the terrain is, the fewer corridors have to be guarded as you also will be forced to get through that tight corridors like a plastic version of 300.
The more terrain and the more BLOS terrain, the better mobility gets. A trait that Terminators do not happen to have.

So, is the problem with Terminators their resiliency or the firepower they bring for their points? (Or a combination thereof)?


What if Termies were toughness 5 or had 2 wounds or something?
What if they had a heavy bolter (or similar) instead of a storm bolter? (Or even access to special ammo?)


Would these things make tactical terminators viable?


Or is it a case of the Storm Shield being just too good of an item?

A combination of both.
When we look at CSM Terminators, they are sometimes utilised as suicide kombimelta squads to pop a tank after DS.
You can afford this because you do not have to pay a powerfist tax on them. Part of the problem are ranged weapons.
Shooting does not care about the shooters stats much and it basically just comes down to the weapon you employ (Snapshots are the worst offender). Also shooting weapons are quite cheap compared to melee weapons which happen to utilize the bearers stats a lot.
The whole AP / Sv system does not work out smoothly as you either have no armor at all (the times my IG friend is allowed to roll actual armor saves is basically zero) or your armor is so good that you cant utilize cover anymore.
If you play IG you might as well buy cheaper models and let them run naked across the table as there is not a whole lot of weapons which will allow a 5+ armor save but getting 5+ cover is extremly easy.

In my mind specialists should come at a discount in points as (theorethically) their numbers are limited and their squadsize is typically smaller (less ablative wounds).
Instead specialists come across like a typical GW one-klick-bundle with a lot of special rules rolled in and no points discount despite missing 75% of the wounds and 50% of the firepower.

Terminators with 2 hp and heavy bolters would sound about right for 40 points actually. Thats a decent amount of firepower with a good wound pool which is sitll affected by ID. T5 would be too much as the ID effect is a handy counter mechanic.
They would also need to come as a 0-1 choice given the rarity of the armor and their elite status.

[Path Walker]

This is why everyone should play Zone Mortalis.

[40kGamer]

This is why everyone should play Zone Mortalis.

Definitely a cool game that breathes new life into several units.

[Haighus]

Yeah, I was specifically referring to Zones Mortalis in my post, where you cannot move through the walls, and pretty much everything is reduced to the same level of mobility as terminators, levelling the playing field. Due to the cramped conditions, it also becomes hard to bring numbers to bear on the squad- you may have 30 marines vs 10 terminators, but it will most likely be 10 on 10 each time, which is then favourable to the terminators, as well as being very short ranged so they are likely to get into combat. You can avoid the terminators all together, but not if they are going for your objective (which they can hold in 7th). Terminators are also one of the few units that are capable of deep striking in Zones Mortalis games, due to deep striking via teleportation, which actually gives them a greater mobility than most units.
Dreadnoughts also benefit from Zones Mortalis greatly too, in that there is little time to blast them apart with firepower before they get into heavy-flamer and assault range, and they aren't as adversely affected as other vehicles being walkers.

[Path Walker]

its 100% my preffered method of playing 40k and i think every gaming group/club should invest in a board, official or making their own, to play on.

[Thornblood]

This would be my fix;

'tactical' terminators;
Special issue ammunition: As Veterans the terminators have access to the special issue ammunition available to sternguard veterans. However, due to the bulky sealed suits of armour, the terminators cannot reload, and must choose before deployment what ammunition they are taking, and may only. Fire that for the rest of the game. Being fired from a storm bolter, said special issue ammunition is fired as if twin linked.

alternatively a new form of special issue Storm bolter ammo such as;
range:24 strength 5, ap 4, assault 2, -1 to cover saves
Maybe fluff wise the terminators are carrying bigger bore storm bolters which fire heavy bolter rounds.


In addition I would give them the following options; Sergeant may take one of the following;
( for different points respectively)
relic blade,
shield terminatus (a combat shield strapped to the forearm which increases the invulnerable to 4+)
twin linked plasma gun,
twin linked gravgun
combi-flamer/melta/plasma/grav
signum

In addition, at +3 or maybe +5 points per model the whole squad may take one of the following veteran tactics; adamantium will (+3), counter attack (+5), furious charge (+3), hatred (+5), precision shots (+5) precision strikes (+3), split fire (+3) tank hunters (+3)

hopefully my it makes the termies a lot more flexible and 'tactical' yet still fitting with the fluff that they are wearing tactical dreadnought armour, can't reload and have had to prepare for a specific purpose before leaving the battle barge/armoury

[Charon]

You would still have the problem that they die like flies... well armored flies, but flies nontheless.
If you compare them to Obliterators for example with 2W and a lot of firepower, its not only one contributing factor that makes them worth (even if they are overpriced) to field but the combination of durability and firepower while staying relatively small.

[jeffersonian000]

As a Grey Knights player, with 33pt Psychic Tac Termies that can take super-assault cannons and mixed Force weapons, I'd say the fix for Marine Tac Termies is 30ppm and accurate Deep Strike. Those two changes would solve a huge chunk of problems without effecting other aspects if the game.

Personally, I think the real fix is to move all Plasma type weapon from AP2 to AP3, but that's a different kind of fix.

SJ

[CoffeeGrunt]

I saw a suggest on Bolter and Chainsword one that might work. Give Terminators a 1+ Armour Save.

"But Coffee," you say in a confused tone, "you always fail on a 1 anyway, so the change is irrelevant!" Ah, mon ami, but now your opponent needs AP1 weapons to punch through that Terminator plate, cutting down the applicable weapons significantly! Doesn't solve the weight-of-fire issue, or bad luck rolling your functional 2+ Save, but it helps them get the chance to roll that 2+ a little more often.

Also I've been pushing the Heralds of Ruin Kill Team ruleset at the store recently, and we found during a casual tournament that Marines are so much better in it, due to significant lack of large blasts, limited number of small blasts or templates, and general scarcity of AP3 or less weapons. Not to mention the smaller scale making weight of fire much tougher to bring.

Heck, it makes things so good in topsy-turvy ways, that one of the better-performing Kill Teams on the day was a Genestealer list, because the things were on you turn 1 from Cover, and the sincere lack of Ignores Cover abilities makes that pretty scary!

Terminators, while rare, are absolute buggers to try and get rid of, especially if your opponent has killed your only AP2 weapons!