Shrike and Infiltration

[Culven]

Jwolf. I understand your interpretation that the game begins before it starts, but I think it is at odds with the "Start the Game!" phrase in the mission rules.

[Bean]

Bean - Do you contend that deployment happens before the game begins? I do not agree with that assertion. I believe the game begins when we get to the table and roll dice, and dice are rolled before any deployment exists (in fact, before legal deployment is even established). So before we even have the information necessary to determine deployment, the game has begun, and as we know, an IC may begin the game as part of a squad.

Yes. I would say that the game begins when the rules say it begins--which is after deployment. Thus, I would certainly contend that deployment happens before the game begins.

You can believe that the game begins before deployment all you want, but that belief is directly and specifically contradicted by the actual rules. It is, therefore, wrong.

Also, for the record, "begin" is a direct synonym of "start." Saying that the game "starts" at a certain point is identical to saying that it "begins" at that certain point.


edit:
To look at it another way, are you really suggesting that you must have decided whether Shrike will be starting the game as part of a unit--and of which unit he will be a part at the start of the game--when you get to the table? You have to tell your opponent, right then, "now that we're starting the game, Shrike will be joined to this unit, here?"

Or is it when you roll the first dice?

Either way, even if the game really begins when you say it does, you still doesn't support your earlier assertions. Shrike would have to be a part of the unit in those earliest moments--you couldn't choose to attach him to a squad during deployment.

[Lerra]

I've always played that the beginning of the game happens before you roll for mission and deployment type (from the colloquial use of "hey guys, I'm going to grab food before we begin the game" = food before any dice are rolled). There were a few piece of old wargear (space marine rocket launchers, I think) where you had to choose your missile type at the beginning of the game, and we played as if that happened before you knew mission type.

YMMV.

[Jwolf]

Jwolf. I understand your interpretation that the game begins before it starts, but I think it is at odds with the "Start the Game!" phrase in the mission rules.

It is, I agree. Considering how important to the play of the game the occurances that happen before we get to the Start the Game point are, it's hard for me to consider that they are not important parts of the game itself. I'd go so far as to say that many games are just going through the motions by the time we get to Start the Game.

Regardless, I haven't the interest to continue the theoretical argument, so I'll bow out.

[Culven]

I have a different take on the "before the first turn" events. Since the mission rules define the "Start of the Game", anything prior to that is just set-up, much the same way that removing models from the table and packing them away is clean up after the end of the game.

[karandras]

Wow! Guess I am too late for the party, but I just read this whole thread and found it interesting.

Here in North Florida we have a particular player who routinely comes to tournaments with a Shrike + another named character (usually Calgar or Sicarius) all scout army list. Not only does he deploy Shrike via infiltrate attached to a Tactical Squad, but he then insists on attaching the other named special character. I have called him on it both times we played and prohibited him from attaching the additional IC as I feel it is pretty much in direct violation of the USR and specifically spelled out. His overly liberal assertion of "his squad" under Shrike's rules in the SM Codex is that the other IC joins the squad and then Shrike joins the squad. What makes it even worse, is he always immediately jumps Shrike away from the Tactical Squad at the top of his first turn. An real slap in the face to the fluff and the intent of the rule.

That being said, I never would have interpreted Shrike's entry as anything other than he allows whatever squad he joins to deploy via infiltrate (or they may choose to outflank). All of this sequential banter seems to be completely ridiculous. It is rules lawyering and detracts from the fun of the game. While I appreciate the point of Bean's literal interpretation of the RAW and agree that GWs rules would often benefit from greater consistancy, I cannot conceed the logic of Shrike's special rules being useless and illegal. They may be useless and illegal as written, but unlike the Doom of Malanthai, most players I think would interpret their intent pretty clearly. Just my proverbial two cents. Interesting thread though!

On a side note Bean, I am curious how you feel about the use of Valkyrie/Vendettas. Many players use them to outflank while transporting units that do not themselves have the ability to outflank. I feel that this is a very clear and very direct violation of the Outflank rules, yet I seem to be in the minority.

[Shavnir]

I cannot conceed the logic of Shrike's special rules being useless and illegal. They may be useless and illegal as written...

As a point even if you went with the strict raw it would still allow Shrike to infiltrate or Shrike and a squad to outflank. Not completely useless, but close.

[Culven]

I am curious how you feel about the use of Valkyrie/Vendettas. Many players use them to outflank while transporting units that do not themselves have the ability to outflank. I feel that this is a very clear and very direct violation of the Outflank rules, yet I seem to be in the minority.

This is off topic for this thread, but I will answer if this doesn't go too far. If it does, then there should be another thread for it.

When using a Transport, the Transport's rules govern. If this were not the case, then a Transport could never move more than 6" (max move for Infantry) and Drop Pods would be rather pointless (why would one use a Drop Pod if the unit inside could simply Deep Strike?).