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  1. #11
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    Simple.

    Rules are bloated (I like unique rules and flavour options, but its going a little too far in terms of Force construction)
    Rules dont work (See psykers and others)
    The balance is Borked (Hello wave serpent)
    and the missions are ultimately candyland
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  2. #12
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    From what I can tell, it's as daboarder says "the rules are too bloated". Back in the golden age of 5th ed tourneyhammer, the rules were a bit tighter in the sense that there was altogether less going on in the game rules wise. It was a cleaner and simpler rules set, even though it had all the same issues we know and love from GW (shoddy spelling, silly oversights etc).
    On top of this there were only the base codex books to worry about. So if you had the cash you could buy them and read them and still have time to shower eat and probably go earn that money. Or if you didn't have the cash, you could easily learn just by playing against the other armies a bit.

    Nowadays, good luck getting your hands on all those books ($83 a pop in the land of OZ). And even if you can afford that/are ok with stealing them, good luck getting through it all. And then there's the idea that playing against Necrons is different to playing against necrons in a formation which is different to playing necrons unbound and let's not even talk about allies.
    And then we have to add to that the fact that the change from 5th to 6th was considerable and changed the game from one where shooting and assault were as viable as one another, to a game largely dominated by big guns and weight of fire. And then you have the crazy release schedule of main book and a supplement a week later and then at Christmas another 10 data slates, with a few more scattered through the year. There hasn't really been any time for people to settle into 7th ed. (It only came out July last year, remember).

    So the easy thing to say is "it's a game for narrative and RPG players" because they're happy to make their own balance and play around with things in ways you simply can't do in a tournament. But really, I think once the dust settles and we can all take a deep breath and a step back, while GW focuses on fantasy for a few months around the 9th ed release, we will see the game settle, the rules will be more familiar and the understanding of the game, that allows for healthy competition will come back.

  3. #13
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    As someone who is never forced into playing 3 games in a day, I prefer the rules bloat as opposed to the crap we had back in the day. The advent of 3rd edition was a day that lives in infamy for me, and the closer we get back to those halcyon days of 2nd, the better.

    If Plastic Doll Rommels want to develop their own "streamlined" rule sets so that its possible to figure out who the best dice-thrower and measuring tape user is by close of business then go for it. Just don't ruin it for the rest of us.
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  4. #14
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    I would add that not all event goers are mini-Napoleon wannabe's and that it is entirely possible to have plenty of flavor-flav in the game without needing to memorize and reference the full set of the encyclopedia britannica.
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  5. #15

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    I'd have to say as i said above - balance was never a good thing in this game, so the balance issue to me is not valid because every edition had broken things.

    This edition - wave serpents are obviously broken. In 5th it was draigo, and long fang missile spam, and then there was the lash prince, and iron warriors in 3.5, and then there was the starcannon and the rhino in 3rd.

    I'm not sure I understand the rules dont work. The psyker phase works, its just kind of needless because they keep making it an automatic success almost like it was before.

    The missions were also largely candyland in previous editions. They were typically the same five or six missions run ad naseum over and over so that things like my gunline imperial guard that castled in a corner every game won pretty much every game in 4th ed (well not pretty much every game, but i was batting over .900 which is very good for just sitting in a corner and not moving and just rolling 200 dice a turn)

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defenestratus View Post
    Talking about a game of dice and plastic dolls in any sense that its a competitive endeavor is silly at the onset.
    While it's certainly never going to be chess, most 'games with dolls' that sell rulebooks recognize that those rules ought to possess at least some claim to quality, consistency, and fairness for both (or all) players involved. That's common courtesy for a game that you can sink an hour or more into.. and makes people actually want to play the game. You could even argue that competitiveness (which can also be called 'fair chances to win for both players', cetaris paribus) is the main selling point of a rulebook. Nobody wants to sink their time into a game where they've lost at the outset, and they shouldn't have to.

    'You're just glorified children, make pew-pew noises instead of having thoughts about things' is not a compelling way to shut down this conversation.

    Anyway..

    The biggest problems started showing up when GW realized that it could sell formations as a way to guarantee sales of specific kits, imo. Like the Fire Support Cadre and the Ghost Warriors formations that it sold over the holidays a couple years ago, they realized 'hey, if we make rules to make a certain combination of kits better, people will buy more of those kits all at once!'

    And then formations started showing up everywhere, and in many cases they completely altered how a unit performed or gave it extra rules.. with no extra point price per model. And as we're getting into 7th, we're starting to see just how much of a pain this is, especially combined with the new Allies rules. The biggest selling point of the day one DLC 'companion codexes' is the formations.

    Combine this with the game theory concept of 'dominant strategies', basically, strategies inherent in the game which are literally better than the other options 100% of the time. Many weapons and models in the game have this problem: there is no reason to take quite a few of them, because another choice is just superior in every possible way. GW rules design suffers from this quite a bit, especially in 40k (though I've noticed it in newer Fantasy books also).

    The result is, community standards for the game have shifted to be more relaxed and all-inclusive, just like GW wanted them to. Except that also includes 'everyday game' lists with two Riptides, a Baneblade with a dedicated Divination buffer, and all of the other utter nonsense that I see when I look over at the 40k tables of my FLGS these days.

    Is it possible to play friendly games? Yes, if you're lucky to have a good community that supports them. But in larger communities, it's drowned out by the cheese-list spam. Fluffy lists are just worse, unfortunately, because they're substantially less points-efficient than the good models. And the prevailing attitude is 'well GW says you can do it in the book, so it's okay for me to bring a Lord of War superheavy to every game'... it's just an arms race for who can buy the silliest models or formations, and that's an attitude I don't want to play with.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Defenestratus View Post
    As someone who is never forced into playing 3 games in a day, I prefer the rules bloat as opposed to the crap we had back in the day. The advent of 3rd edition was a day that lives in infamy for me, and the closer we get back to those halcyon days of 2nd, the better.
    I loved 2nd edition, and would be giddy if they ever did a true skirmish level 40K again, but I think what he meant was all the rules scattered insanely all over the place. And some of it's in the worst places, like when they did the Cities of Death rules in two White Dwarfs with the cards in those magazines... and if someone doesn't have those issues, they don't have any way to get the stuff to play that style of game. I have the Planetstrike rules and Cities of Death rules, nobody will play them because they can't get the rules easily. Then there's all the various formations and detachments that people can make. And I still have to explain to people that "Battle-forged" doesn't mean just CADs, and how Unbound and Battle-forged actually work. Those are just a few examples. Throw in the "you can mix any allies you want" and it gets a bit insane. 2nd edition had various restrictions. While the core rules were more complex, it was a "simpler" game overall.

  8. #18
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    Maybe tourney organisers should ensure that as well as a prize for the death and destruction you cause, which maybe won by a power list, that prizes for overall are also available. Try not to skew scores for painting, death and destruction and comp.

    Or maybe they should just award the 'Bellthronk Prize for cheesiest WAAC netlisters' that might discourage people trying to win by list selection...
    I'M RATHER DEFINATELY SURE FEMALE SPACE MARINES DEFINERTLEY DON'T EXIST.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Denzark View Post
    Maybe tourney organisers should ensure that as well as a prize for the death and destruction you cause, which maybe won by a power list, that prizes for overall are also available. Try not to skew scores for painting, death and destruction and comp.

    Or maybe they should just award the 'Bellthronk Prize for cheesiest WAAC netlisters' that might discourage people trying to win by list selection...
    The Golden Douche award? Actual douche, spray painted gold.
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  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Setzer View Post
    I loved 2nd edition, and would be giddy if they ever did a true skirmish level 40K again, but I think what he meant was all the rules scattered insanely all over the place. And some of it's in the worst places, like when they did the Cities of Death rules in two White Dwarfs with the cards in those magazines... and if someone doesn't have those issues, they don't have any way to get the stuff to play that style of game. I have the Planetstrike rules and Cities of Death rules, nobody will play them because they can't get the rules easily. Then there's all the various formations and detachments that people can make. And I still have to explain to people that "Battle-forged" doesn't mean just CADs, and how Unbound and Battle-forged actually work. Those are just a few examples. Throw in the "you can mix any allies you want" and it gets a bit insane. 2nd edition had various restrictions. While the core rules were more complex, it was a "simpler" game overall.
    The Cities of Death rules are in the first Shield of Baal Campaign book. No doubt will also become available as a separate eBook like Planetfall.

    New things take a lot of getting use to, people will get the hang of it.

    2nd edition was not a simple game by any stretch of the imagination, yes lists were a bit less complicated, but when you had to roll combat for each member of a squad separately and ad up outnumbering bonuses, it bogged down very quickly and became a chore.

    People moaned for a long time about White Dwarf not having rules or cards in it, now that it does, people are moaning one more! They literally can't do a thing to please you people.

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