What I would do if I could create 9th edition Warhammer Fantasy

[adamjsingh]

Hello out there to anyone reading this. My name is Adam. I am a warhammer fantasy and 40K player who used to live in Austin but now I live in Nairobi. I have been trying to follow all of the GW news from Kenya as much as I can. I have all of my minis in storage in Texas and haven't played since mid 2013 but I try to stay up to date.

I have been reading the end times story, mostly started because of the return of Nagash and the Undead Legion. I have read the story and I like the fact that GW is shaking up the story for fantasy. It's like Game of Thrones with everyone dieing and the world going to hell in a hand basket. I also saw this was a segue into 9th edition. I have read many of the articles on Faeit 212 and Warseer and seen many YouTube posts from different people on their reactions to the rumors for 9th edition. Some of the rumors I like and some I don't but, after reading and watching and having a chance to digest it all I thought of what I would do for 9th edition based on rumors.

Now you can agree or disagree with it. Think of what I came up with was smart or think I am an idiot but I thought this would be a good bridge to continue to keep old players interested and bring in new players. I wanted to post my ideas in the hopes that GW would listen. It might be a pipe dream that they will and maybe too many things are set to implement what I have thought of. Anyways, I would like to get the ideas anyone else had on this as well.

The fluff

So if you have read the end times, Lileath believes that Chaos will destroy the world and so, she creates a new one with Araloth to lead the way. Well in the last battle of the end times, when Chaos and the Skaven are fighting everyone else, the incarnates of the eight winds of magic get together to try to create an ultimate spell or demispell to suck all of Chaos back into the warp. The consequences of this spell is that it may destroy all life in the warhammer world. To help counter this, the incarnates have created gateways to Lileath's new world so they can rush into before the world falls apart. This is much like Alarielle does at the end of the Khaine book to save all of the elves before Ulthuan sinks into the sea. This is somewhat successful. The Chaos Gods are driven back into the Warp along with the Great Horned Rat and all of the demons. They are also severely weakened by this spell. Some of the Skaven, Beastmen and Chaos worshiping humans sneak into the new world when this happens, along with some of the “good guys” (humans, elves, dwarves, ogres, undead, whomever).

Most of the living, no matter what side they are on dies. The world is turned into a waste land soaked with magic and warp energies. No life can exist. The incarnates go into the new world as gods. The gods go into the new world to try to protect it from Chaos, much like the guardians in Tolkien. The only gods that stay behind in the dead world are Nagash and Eldyra (who becomes like a bride of Nagash). Nagash is the god of death and makes the dead world like Hades, where all the dead and spirits of the dead in the new world go to reside in the afterlife (he gets what he wants, a world of the dead). Nagash and Eldyra also guard the new Hades in case Chaos comes there again and they can give warning to the other gods in the new world. Also, the Lizardmen pyramids land in the new world as well. The new world is uncharted, unknown and the races are trying to make their way. Some work together, some not. That becomes the setting for 9th edition. New uncharted world with no one really settled anywhere or with anyone. No set factions!

How the game is played and how armies are built

There will be three games, 8th edition which is the old world before the end times, end times itself and 9th edition in the new world. In 9th edition, there will be a main rulebook with with the core rules and very little fluff on the new world. This is because there is very little known about the new world. This gives players the way to shape the world as they play, very much like a GM creates a world for an RPG. Then each unit comes with their own rules in their box. For people that have models, those rules can be posted on GW's website or can be on a free app, much like War Room is for War Machine/Hordes. The rulebook will say that x% of your points are for lords, y% are for heroes, z% are for core, etc.

The thing is you as the player can choose any core units to be your core, any special units for special. You can have Sauran Warriors with Dwarf Cannons led by a Vampire Lord. You get to do this because there is no set story yet for the new world. It's brand new! You get to make the story about your army and how it came to be!

The problem is there is a good chance there might be a list that trumps all. The way to counter this try to create a balance with the new rules of each unit and try to build units like rock, paper, scissors. There is no trump list or at least try. The main factor on how you win is where you place your units, where you move them, when you move them and what they do and when they do it. Strategy and a little luck from the dice.

The game would also be set on a smaller scale. The standard game would be 1,000 points and a grand army would be 2,000+ points. This would allow new players to start and allow old players to do new things. You can play small or big. Also, it is easier to balance you don't need to release new units and characters for each faction to keep balance. The new unit, monster or character is available to everyone.

You can have units either skirmish or rank up, each with its own pros and cons. Certain strategies work better for low-point skirmishes and others for large-scale battles. All of the units can be used in either style or point size.

An example can be skinks and their blow guns. In a low-point game, they might want to skirmish because there is more room to maneuver. In large scale game, they rank up to shoot better. They don't have to worry about lack of mobility because there are too many units in the way.

One last thing, all square bases!


Like I said, this is my vision of how 9th edition could be if GW wants to implement the ideas they have based on the rumors that are out there. If you think it sounds good, thanks. If you think I am a day-dreaming idiot, sorry.

[Gridlock]

I agree on Square bases and to a certain extend the fluff.

Square bases because the differences between 40k and Fantasy is that 40k is Squad based and Fantasy is army based.
And that is fine i don´t want my Warhammer Fantasy to play like 40k just with magic and fantasy creatures instead of warp powers and sci-fi creatures, and vice versa.

As for fluff sure i can go along with that to a certain extend, but i would add that gateways still exists between the two worlds and that some people other then the undead still live in the old world just very deep underground.

Now for the gameplay there we completely disagree on some points.
One thing i love about GW is their codex and armybook filled with good art and great fluff plus a handy place where all your army´s rules are gathered, i would be very sorry to see it go and replaced with a warmachine like rules.

As for allies no just no.
Instead of mixing the different armies, i would want them to stay separate but with each army playing differently then the other ones each with their own strength and weakness.
A few examples
Dwarfs Strengths: High toughness, high leadership, almost all of the troops have heavy armor, the highest resistance to magic, is the army with the most warmachines all of which can be costume built with runes.
Weakness: movement 3, except for the gyrocopter no fast attack units, due to low initiative always strikes last, can´t cast magic of any kind, each units is expensive which means even in large armies you won´t get that many troops.

Empire should be a kind of the middle of road their movement is normal, the have fast attack units (but none of them are as good the wood elves counter part), they have access to warmachines and guns (but none of them are as good as the Dwarfs) they can cast magic (but none of their spells aren´t as powerful as those of the High Elves, Chaos or the Lizardmens).
The middle of the road should be both their strength and weakness at the same time.
Sure they can´t cast as power spell as the other three races, but at the same time the chance of miss cast is relatively low and not as dire as when it happens to the other races. Sure their guns aren´t as accurate or powerful as the Dwarfs, but they are much cheaper compared to the dwarfs and they have at least a few with access to a large template something the dwarfs miss almost completely.
Sure they aren´t as fast as the high elves or wood elves, but their toughness and a 50/50% distribution of light and heavy armor more then makes up for that and the warmachines are more then strong enough to pick off any of the high evles warmachines and units.

High Elves Strength: high initiative almost always strikes first, the third most powerful spell casting army in the game only (their most powerfull spells has a high chance of ripping through even the dwarfs magic resistance) they are only surpassed by the Lizardmen and Chaos, can move and fire (even their warmachines), in the section of fast attack only the wood elves has more fast attack units then the high elves.
Weakness: Low to average strength, only 1 unit in their entire army has heavy armor and they can´t use shields (this means their warmachines can also be taken down easier then say the dwarfs), their thoroughness isn´t above average on any of the units, they miscast easier then the empire.

Chaos: Strengths: High Strength, high armor value (all of the armies has heavy armor and half of their units have chaos armor which is akin to gromriel), the strongest spellcasting army of them all (even their mid level spell can put a strain on dwarfs magic resistance), access to demons and demonic gifts.
Weakness: the highest priced per unit even the dwarfs seems relatively cheap in comparison, no shooting units or warmachines of any kind and only one or two fast attacking units, since they are the strongest spell casting army their chance of miscast is also the highest same as the price of miscast, certain demons won´t work with one another Tzeentch demons and gifts won´t work with Nurgle and vice versa and Khorne won´t wrok with Slaanesh and vice versa.

[Andrew Thomas]

A robust Formation system that allows some balancing out between armies with big block infantry and armies with smaller units. Like having Dwarven Infantry be capable of locking shields and steam-rolling enemies off the board, or Skaven hordes carrying off enemy models. Light Cavalry running through infantry units while taking pot-shots at their officers. Stuff like that.

[hirvaan]

adamjsingh nice idea, i hope GW will go this way, wth few exceptions: i partially agree wth Gridlock, pick-any-unit-and-stick-it-in-your-army is the easiest way to make some armies TERRIBLY OP. so no. but... keep the legions. and hosts. so you can't make HE-lizardmen-dwarf army, but there is no problem with Dark Wood Elf army. or High Dark elf. or Tomb Counts. or Vampire Kings. or dwarf/empire mashup. or sth. you get the idea. keep the distinction between armies, or "nationality" of races in WFB, but join them in the way they are right now, or at least do sth similar.

Andrew Thomas, that kind of formations would be AWESOME but toned down a bit, not to get OP - keep it balanced!

and my idea: why not add mordheim-like table of "he lost eye, lost leg, gained awesome scars" for lords and heroes? make one necromancer a bit different from other, one faring better in skirmish scale, one beter in army scale not because of stats, but because you played x times army scale, but 10x times skirmish scale, so this is just sth your hero/lord/general KNOWS BETTER and have more experince in it?

just to add some flavour and way to connect more wth your armies and to immerse in the game more. just an idea

[adamjsingh]

After reading your posts, I can see where you would want to keep the factions. There can easily be an imbalance. My ideas on the new factions would be what is rumored with addition of Lizardmen landing on the new world.

Empire (Humans, Dwarves, Ogres, Halflings)
Chaos(Warriors, Demons, Beastmen)
Undead
Orcs & Goblins
Skaven
Elves
Lizardmen

I just like the idea of a new world better than bubbles of reality and again, square bases. Thanks for the responses.

[Auticus]

Allies to me is coming. Its technically been in the book since 2010 but in the area few venture to (grand army rules)

I have no problem with allies because the game is written from a narrative end, not a competitive one. From a narrative end, if I want to craft an army of dwarf warriors that have allied with ogres... I now have a mechanic to make that happen.

Not everyone may agree with my narrative, but people slag the official narrative just as much so I don't really care about that.

Will that allow power gamers to power game? Yes absolutely. Given the choice between freedom and restriction I'll choose freedom but thats my own personal taste.

[Mr Mystery]

Give smaller units little perks.

For instance, whilst marching in lockstep requires practice and discipline, it's still much, much easier for say, 20 men to pull it off than it is 60.

Get the rules to reflect that. Big units hit like a ton of bricks, but feel unwieldy on the field - this is absolutely correct if you ask me. But just give small units extra perks to represent they are more manouverable.

[Erik Setzer]

Sadly, I'm at work so I can't spill out all the stuff in my head, between time constraints and having to pay attention to a big project... So I'll just toss out some ideas.

I think the only small units that should get "bonuses" are skirmishing units. They wouldn't form ranks to fight an enemy unit. They'd jump into the middle of the enemy unit, fighting wherever they could. Without being stuck in a bulky formation and with freedom to move around, they'd be harder to hit, so there'd be a penalty to hit them. I was thinking -1 to hit, though that seems kind of harsh (yeah, I'd totally change the Mark of Nurgle, too), but maybe -2 or -3 WS to the unit swinging at them?

I think a lot of game rules would be best served with some edits. Don't try to hold to the old books. Actually, I think a great plan would be a tweaked system that included "scaling" rules for skirmish-level combats, small engagements between units, and pitched battles between massed forces. There would be some rules differences at the various levels. For each army, their book would contain points costs for skirmish fighting and regiment fighting both, allowing the points to remain balanced in both scenarios (some units can become a lot better in smaller games).

Fluff... I can think of some options. For now, I'll briefly describe an option wherein the end of End Times stays as-is. No changes to who lives or dies. (I'm running this off of the spoiler topic and assumptions.) Just a quick, rough sketch of an idea:

The essence floating in the void where the world used to be, who will be known as The Essence in legends speaking of him, finds something that allows it to tap into the dimension Lileath's daughter was sent into. The Essence is basically all that's left of the Warhammer world, an amalgamation of the world's magic and history poured into one being. Doesn't matter who that being once was. They now act as a "memory" of a world that was, as well as the energy to power the rebuilding of the world through Lileath's daughter. (Sorry, I'm sure she has a name, I just don't recall it at the moment.)

A new world is created from the energy contained in the Essence, spilling out and wrapping into a new globe, with new life. While the races of the world resembled what used to be, things are still quite different. It's a new vision of the world, guided not by the Old Ones, but by whatever was in the Essence, and by Lileath's daughter. A fresh new map of nations with new names, spread out across the planet. The people of the world don't realize they sprang into being, they think "This is the way it's always been..."

The Chaos gods, seeing that there's this surprise fresh new world, send minions back to fight for it, albeit without a Realm of Chaos to give them ever-increasing strength. The Skaven take note and use whatever means they have for traveling to send at least some of their own back to try to plunder the world's riches (alas, no warpstone, those rats will be disappointed). The Slann, noting their foes Chaos and Skaven trying to get a foothold on a world, send some ships back to establish a colony and defend the planet.

The Elven race is divided not by civil war, but on their views of their relationship with the world. The human nations are divided by culture. Both races are internally "united" when necessary, but otherwise treat each internal faction as a sovereign group.

Various nations and factions fight over resources, or, when it comes to the Ruinous Powers, simply for survival.

At times, when the fighting is particularly fierce, the minds of a group of people might turn to dreams in their head of some hero who once fought on their behalf, a hero who takes form and appears to fight on their behalf on the battlefield. Heroes like Karl Franz, Korhil, Bugman...

It would be a new world with a new beginning and room for growth, but still keep all armies intact as viable parts of the game's history, and ditto for special characters. It'd even allowed for other "heroes of yesterday" to get models and rules, which would be an excuse to release more impressive models. (Okay, if I was doing it, I might not push the "collector model" route so much.)

So yeah, that's my initial ideas.

So many things that could be done...