Could the Legions be reconstituted?

[Maxiums2807]

First of pardon the english i am from Denmark

As mentioned before I think only the Ultramarines would be able to reform into a Legion again, because they are the only chapter who has the industrial might to support a legion force. According to a couple of different HH novels they numbered aprox 250.000 marines during the heresy, also their sphere of influence was somewhat bigger during those times so the influx of new recruits was bigger.

My second bid would be the Space Wolves because they also have a large industrial base i the Fang. Heard some rumors sometime ago what they even may have a functional STC which would be a great asset for a legion.

Dark angles and black templars could make what i would call a semi-legion numbering around 5-6000 marines each if they combined all their in the case of DA unforgiven chapters and all the crusades the Black Templars Has.

[Ezaviel]

Wouldn't the Unforgiven reform into a legion? If any chapters, I'd imagine it would be them.

The Unforgiven already operate like a Legion to some degree. Nearly all the Unforgiven chapters maintain unusually close lines of communication back to the Angels, and Azrael regularly gives them direct orders to do stuff, which they almost always do, basically acting like old Legion Chapter Masters.

There has been speculation within the Inquisition that the Dark Angels are still functionally a legion for a while.

[Thornblood]

Ok, so my answer is pretty cagey. For some legions yes, for some legions no.

There are a few issues to consider that I will split into two broad categories; physical feasibility and political likelihood. I'm going to consider each loyal legion.

1. Dark Angels; Yes! On both fronts. The last dark Angels codex suggested that the dark Angels and successors are still secretly operating as a legion, with the same deathwing and ravenwing contingents being made up at legion strength from successor chapters. In terms of supply lines there could be a small issue.

5. White Scars; No! Politically, even before the heresy Jagheti ran his legion as I dependant warrior tribes. To face a common foe for an extended period of time it would be possible, but I doubt the successors would sacrifice their heritage, history, heraldry etc considering they don't believe in unity. In terms of physical supply lines, again no. No matter how barbaric/codex the successors are, it's not feasible to relocate them all back to mind is planus and local planets. The one exception being that if Jagehti returned they might band together with a 'come to heel or be destroyed' threat, and even then a lot would be destroyed. Proud warrior tradition and all that.

6. Space Wolves; yes! no (surviving) successors due to gene seed instability and reliance on Fenrisian support. See Battle of the Fang.

7. Imperial Fists; yes! I doubt the Templars would change their colour scheme, but for the sake of obedience to the emperor, that lot would do anything. It might take some good politicians and Inquisitors as Pugh and Lysander are pretty much blunt instruments of inspirational heroism, not unifying greater good types. helbrecht however...

9. Blood Angels; yes! Dante called all the successors together and who is a successor is pretty obvious due to the black rage and then all suffering together. They can definately work through their differences and work out the logistics.

10. Iron Hands; maybe. Politically a lot of the successors don't like the first founding chapter. However the iron father politics of having a council not a chapter master means the coy nils could possibly merge. The stubbornness and short tempers mean perhaps not. On the basis that each legionary can equip and maintain himself (even if that means owning servitors and servants and slaves), that it's feasible.

13. Ultramarines; probably not. Spread too far with too many successors and too complex, and non unifying politics. However, if Big Mac himself (Marneus Calgar) somehow became a high Lord of Terra, in sure they would all fall into line, provided that part of their remit was to protect their home system. At the mo, Big Mac becoming a High Lord is almost impossible, but some creative writing can cure that.

18. Salamanders; erm, yes? we don't have a straight answer if these guys have successors, but they are very nice guys, so I imagine they could all get along, and like the iron hands maintain and create their own equipment and genetics.

19. Raven Guard; probably yes; whilst Lyceus and Delivernace can support a legion, why would the secretive raven guard, raptors, black guard, dark Eagles, etc want to work alongside the berserk carcharodons, proud hawk lords, flamboyant flame Eagles etc etc. the split between independent stealthers and ferocious vanguard was already present in the heresy (with corax leaving a lot of termies and vanguard with Horus so he could concentrate on stealthy things- see hh book 3 from fw). A good plot could bring them together I feel, maybe the parent legion is in trouble and the rest could possibly save it somehow?? Even rejoined as a legion though, with stealthy secrets within secrets I'm sure each successor chapter would Aubery a secret force kept hidden from the rest of the legion.

20. Alpha Legion; no! SPOILERS!! So at the moment with the heresy novels Alpharius is consumed by pride and arrogance, and is ignoring the cabal. A sure sign to fall to chaos (even if the cabal did turn out to be evil/ish. Omegon however could be the saving grace. But he's beyond saving the whole alpha legion, what with voldorius, and possessed stuff, and daemon engines etc etc

in summary, for the most part, yes. It's just the numerical bulk of the ultrasmurfs, and the wild white scars that cause the biggest problem.

[WaywardSon5]

It may be the wishful thinking of an old Black Templars player, but I've always imagined the Templars actually have the numbers already, just scattered across the galaxy in hundreds or thousands of smaller crusade fleets. I have no fluff to back it up, just the hints in their codex that there's much more to the chapter than most suspect.

[Denzark]

20. Alpha Legion; no! SPOILERS!! So at the moment with the heresy novels Alpharius is consumed by pride and arrogance, and is ignoring the cabal. A sure sign to fall to chaos (even if the cabal did turn out to be evil/ish. Omegon however could be the saving grace. But he's beyond saving the whole alpha legion, what with voldorius, and possessed stuff, and daemon engines etc etc

in summary, for the most part, yes. It's just the numerical bulk of the ultrasmurfs, and the wild white scars that cause the biggest problem.

One of the twins is killed by Guilliman...

[Thornblood]

I really don't think Guilliman kills one of the twins.

In one of the short stories Alpharius leads an attack squad on a deniurg mining colony. His whole squad beloved its Alpharius, as does the sergeant/captain leading the team, who also believes he is Alpharius. Only at the end of the story do you discover that he had taken a blood transfusion from Alpharius that essentially turns himself into the primarch. I doubt it was Alpharius Guilliman killed. It's this bit of fluff that gave all the merch with the tag line on it;

I AM ALPHARIUS

Also, having now seen guillimans devious political mind in unremembered empire I'm sure he would happily report that he killed Alpharius for the morale boost, not to undermine his troops which saw him kill 'Alpharius', for one upmanship against Dorn who he just saved from the iron cage failure, and to report to the imperium that they killed an enemy primarch for the political/moral reasons. The alpha legion are so sneaky and devious, and Guilliman such a politically minded statesman that there is always the possibility that they never fought, but made the whole story up together for mutual gain. The reports of the Alpha Legion primarch being dead would certainly give him an edge when it comes to infiltrating and sneaking about. And don't forget the 'pure' legion within the larger alpha legion...

Basically what im saying is that you can't prove anything that Alpharius has or hasn't been involved in.

[grimmas]

As I see it the only obstacles to reforming the the Legions are political all the limits placed on chapter size come from the rules set down following the Horus Heresey not because the imperium is incapable of producing enough Astartes.

The Imperium has been tithing Gene seed for 10000 yrs they must have a big store of it by now, evidenced in Storm of Iron and of course it does suggest they are preparing for something. Yes they are much more selective of their recruits than in the Crusade but that because they don't need so many so they can afford to be.

It all about the tenants set out the the Codex Astartes restricting numbers it's going to take a leader of colossal ability to persuade both the Astartes themselves and the wider imperium to go against it. I can't see the High Lords giving up their power easily and Chapter Masters tend to be fiercely independent are they going to just hand their power over.

It's going to take the return of Primarchs or the Emperor finally popping his clogs and being reborn.

[daboarder]

The Imperium has been tithing Gene seed for 10000 yrs they must have a big store of it by now, evidenced in Storm of Iron and of course it does suggest they are preparing for something. Yes they are much more selective of their recruits than in the Crusade but that because they don't need so many so they can afford to be.

unlikely, part of the tithe is so that the adeptus biologis can monitor the chapters and look for corruption of the geneseed, part of it is used in the creation of new chapters and its not the kind of material that your likely to be able to freeze dry.

The geneseed is canonically one fo the rarest, most valuable, misunderstood and irreplaceable technologies in an age when about to go kaput.

I guess the big thing to remember in 40k is, we are in the end times, this setting we play in is a post apocalypse, the human race died on the sand of Istvaan and the Bridge of Horuses battle barge, the last 10,000 years of 40k history have been the slow swirl as it all circles the drain and takes its own sweet time to die.

[Katharon]

Organizationally speaking, the Ultramarines could viably reconstitute themselves into a Legion-sized force by calling upon the allegiance of their successor chapters. However, the action to do so would be widely controversial in the least and could only be mandated by the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines under the most dire of circumstances or at the request of the Lords of Terra. Any such gathering might be construed as an attempt by Ultramar to secede from the Imperium, overthrow the current regime, or somehow destabilize the Imperium at large; all necessitating that the Imperial Guard, other Astartes formations, and Titan Legions all be formed and led by Inquisitorial lords to put down what they would presume to be a rebellion -- if only out of self interest and survival instinct.

If the Lords of Terra were to create a new legion from scratch, it could be done but would take many years, likely centuries. I'd say 10,000~30,000 Astartes would be required in strength before it might be considered Legion-level. While it has been known for the Imperium to raise many new Chapters at once -- such as when they raised several chapters to set a watch upon the Eye of Terror (I forget the exact date, but before the Abyssal Crusade). Such an operation would have to be begun in the Sol System itself. Only the shipyards of Jupiter and the penultimate forge world of Mars would be able to handle the necessary creation of the arms, armour, vehicles, transports, and ships that such an undertaking would require. I imagine that such an undertaking would also require the creation of a veteran cadre of experienced Astartes -- taken from various Loyalist chapters such as the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, White Scars, etc -- to act as leadership for the beginning of the new legion.

The real question then comes to be: why would the Imperium wish to reconstitute the Legions at all? What purpose would it serve to have one or two Astartes legions? And it would only be one or two that might be created. As has been said by others, the Imperium does lack the raw material (gene seed) to create more than what I described above.

If I were to think about it and had the command power to use this new Astartes formation on the strategic level, they'd act as a mobile assault force. A legion force would be capable of taking on any single foe (with support from local PDF, Imperial Guard, and Inquisition assets), such as major Ork empires, the Tyranids, Necron Tomb worlds, etc. Targets such as the Tau Empire could be eradicated in a rather short, vicious campaign. So while the rest of the loyalist chapters and the Imperial Guard hold down the fort as they have for 10,000 years -- this new legion force could be the "fire brigade" that puts out all the major conflagrations one by one....however, that could lead to a great deal of danger. Who would lead the Legion? A chapter master? Dante? Or...maybe...a primarch believed to be lost or dead?

[Psychosplodge]

I'm sure there was fluff that said it took 50 years to produce a 1000 sets of organs from a single geneseed using rapid growth tubes in suitable test subjects.
possibly in one of those astartes background pieces in the old WD.