Demoralized WFB Player

[Path Walker]

Damnit.

[Mr Mystery]

Yep.

Plenty of Hammer, shame about the Anvil.

Tarpit is such a loose term I feel, as it depends upon the strengths of the army as to what your tarpit is meant to do.

Undead? Attrition. Get them bogged down good and proper, stripping them of any impetus, then throw in a couple of judicious spells to boost up your otherwise lacklustre troops, and send the enemy packing.

Skaven? Clanrats and Slaves are an Anvil. Tarpit the enemy to hold him in place, and then wallop his flanks with your big hitters. In enough numbers, Clanrats and Slaves will bring the ranks needed to break steadfast, whilst the filth in your army goes to town with the proper kicking.

Example? Skaven Slaves teamed with Censer Bearers. Slaves kill two thirds of fifty percent of nowt, but are stupendously cheap troops. Have a character in there for good measure, and their Ld goes right up. This is your anvil. Censer Bearers are quite the opposite of the Slaves. Expensive, little staying power on their own, but mess stuff right up in combat. Combine the two units and there is precious little that can stand up to them.

Skaven need their Anvil units. It doesn't matter that Clanrats and Slaves die in absolute droves - that's what they're there for. You just need a big enough unit to look at least slightly dangerous, and reliably hold it's ground for a round, maybe two in combat, until you can pile in the filth elsewhere in your army.

As my first comment, right now you've got a lot of hammer, not enough anvil.

[Erik Setzer]

Well, I'm definitely not buying more models (and no way I can paint 100 more models), so my only bet would be to throw a bunch of models with different styles and paint jobs into one unit and just offer it up as a sacrificial lamb... assuming I can deploy the rest of my army in such a way that my opponent *must* go after the big block (which I'd rather just deploy a base and some dice so I don't spend the game removing models I put effort into painting and deploying, which will only depress me further). It's not just over-the-top beatstick lists, most of the time they actually know what can actually help them. Oh, and they also know that you can remove rank bonus if you can get a side charge as well, so that tarpit just disappears.

It's particularly rough as it was only two editions ago *at most* that units of 30 Clanrats were viable. That's why the army is what it is, I took on my dad's Skaven army (granted, I assembled and painted it for him, so had an attachment to it), and it was perfectly viable to use units of 30 Clanrats, or 25 Stormvermin or Plague Monks, and that was no further back than 6th edition at worst. Their support was actually useful, the side guns were nice but now they just blow up like crazy. Which might just be my incredibly poor luck whenever I play Skaven.

I don't expect to win fights 1-on-1. I'd just like to cause some wounds before I remove my huge block. Seems they can't even do that. And just throwing more money at units that are only expected to pray they can absorb a hit long enough for useful stuff to come in... yeah, I'm sorry, that's a horribly game, especially with the cost of the models. It might sound "fluffy" but, then, with the fluff, those guys should be the initial wave that dies before the real fighting begins. By the time the Skaven really got into serious combat with Belegar's defending forces, it was elite Stormvermin, Hell Pit Abominations, Rat Ogres, Jezzails, Stormfiends, etc. that were actually fighting, the Slaves and even Clanrats pretty much died soaking up bullets and just exhausting the enemy.

And all of this is to say nothing about things like seeing sniping spells used to take out the general so there's no Ld10 (Ld-based spells are disgustingly brutal to Skaven), or spells that hit a hole unit with, say, a Toughness test, or a template, so a large number of models get wiped out and you have to hope they pass the Panic test. And those things are surprisingly commonplace in the current game.

I guess it's good I got the Ogres to go with my Orcs. I know they can't quite compete with some of the stuff I'm seeing, but I can at least do some damage with every army. And there's not many to build and paint, and it'll take some work to remove each one, so I won't feel like I'm throwing money and time into a delaying action.

[Mr Mystery]

Two editions ago Skaven wonder weapons were exceptionally beardy.

As for sniping spells? Welcome to Warhammer. Everyone has to deal with those.

None of the stuff you are listing is actual cause for complaint. They've been in the game since it started. Not fond of them? Warhammer is not the game for you.

[Path Walker]

If your complaints are with the way Skaven work, as yours are, then they're not really valid, sadly for many, units of 30 just aren't viable for cheap troops any more, no army that works on numbers, Scaven, Goblins etc, can get away with small units, the only way around it is to adapt or impose house rules/limits with the people you play with, or drop the points value to 1200.

[Morgrim]

The overall gist seems to be that skaven are currently not the playstyle for you. It happens. Try your orcs and ogres for a bit and see if you have more fun?

[Mr Mystery]

To go into what Pathwalker said, he does have a point.

Prior to the current edition, cheap infantry didn't do much in the game. They'd just get slaughtered one way or another.

But, Fight In Ranks and Steadfast have dramatically changed the impact even the weediest infantryman can have on the battle. Before, Clanrats were essentially little more than a Weapons Team tax. They were that pointless in combat. But now? Now they can pretty much carry the battle for you if you can get that red hot Anvil action down.

Slaves are perhaps preferable for what you have in your army, as you can get them to pin someone down in a protracted combat, and chuck in loads of dakka whilst your at it.

And yes, it can be difficult to make sure you tarpit a worthy unit. But then this is a game of manouvres, and nobody said it would be a doddle!

[Erik Setzer]

I don't feel like "tarpitting" is a unit actually doing something other than getting slaughtered and hoping it takes long enough for them to get slaughtered/break that you can get effective units into combat... which still means the basic problem exists that one army's Core Units act as nothing more than a speedbump (at best) for another army's Core Units, which is a serious balance issue, because you have to throw points *and* money at that speedbump.

And I've seen the "tarpit" used against these Chaos lists. It fairs about as well. It just collapses and crumbles. I've seen a guy who is darned good with Skaven go against some of these Elf and Chaos lists and just not be able to come out on top, and this is a guy who's also been around for a while and actually played in the more competitive tournaments (like the soul-sucking 'Ard Boyz).

It seems my best choice is to join them... I could easily do that with Elves, just grab a Cauldron and maybe another box of Phoenix Guard, possibly a phoenix, that'd go with what I have to present a nasty combo list. Or get some Chaos Warriors, add them to my Daemons, and go that route.

Second-best is probably finishing the Ogres. Once I convert some characters to save a couple hundred dollars and finish assembling units, I should have about 3000 points worth, before magic items. Here's what I've got for them:

6 Ogre Bulls
12 Ogre Ironguts (if you're I2 anyway, why not go with great weapons?)
4 Mournfang Cavalry with great weapons (see above)
8 Leadbelchers
1 Stonehorn (with Hunter, but can be used either way)
1 Ironblaster
1 Tyrant
1 Bruiser BSB
1 Slaughtermaster/Butcher
1 Firebelly
1 Hunter on foot
1 TBD Character
1 Giant

The Giant's really just from my Orcs & Goblins, he might not be that effective, but if I need to chew points, he's not bad as filler. The rest of it basically revolves around hitting really hard and using their natural resilience to protect them. Great weapons, monstrous cavalry, monster, and some nasty shooting. Slaughtermaster/Butcher will use spells to buff units to make them even better in combat.

I'm just worried that more of the same beatstick lists will make me want to put them aside, too. I think my biggest problem is that the town I play in had been majorly against that kind of army for a long, long time, even the tournaments would put emphasis on not building over the top lists, so I got used to that. And I also got used to Warhammer back when 25-30 was a solid sized infantry block, and 50 was considered something massive that you might try with Goblins for giggles (per a Rick Priestley article). Even at the GW store, people were against the beatstick lists, and even talked down a guy who ran them (but the guy goes around playing in big tournaments when he can and enjoys those mostly, so I get his mindset), but now they've adapted that playstyle of "find the cheesiest combos you can to beat your opponent." And I could do that, but I'd have to buy a few kits and it feels like I'd have to play against my nature. Maybe it's time for the nature to change? Though... I did go that route with one of the players in 40K, bringing a Knight Errant and a unit of TWC against him in a 1000 point match, which he hasn't stopped complaining about since (even as he does similar shenanigans in every game).

9th edition could be a blessing in disguise. I'd hate to set aside a lot of models I've paid money for, but if it makes games less one-sided, that'd be better for the game in general, and more enjoyable.

[Wildeybeast]

I don't feel like "tarpitting" is a unit actually doing something other than getting slaughtered and hoping it takes long enough for them to get slaughtered/break that you can get effective units into combat... which still means the basic problem exists that one army's Core Units act as nothing more than a speedbump (at best) for another army's Core Units, which is a serious balance issue, because you have to throw points *and* money at that speedbump.

It's not a problem, it's a deliberate design choice. Skavenslaves have lives measured in minutes when they get into combat in the background whilst Chaos warriors are the fightiest of the fighty pimped up by Chaos gods. Skavenslaves are supposed to get slaughtered, it's what the non-slaves want. So the game reflects that. Core units are not meant to be balanced against each other, overall armies are.

Tbh, from what you are describing, it sounds like the problem is who you are playing against, not the game. I have a mate who plays a similar warrior heavy army to the one you face and he regularly slaughters my newish O&G army. That sort of WoC list is tough, especially against certian armies, but it is beatable. I could beat him easily with my Empire army (cannons+lore of metal), but I don't want to do that. I keep working on my Orcs, refining and improving my list so I can beat him with it. I take the view that every army can beat every other one, you just need to work out how.

[HERO]

I would definitely looking into playing something with restrictions instead.

ETC is a good format and I've been enjoying that a lot lately. I just can't go back to normal WHFB untamed anymore.