The Reasons Players Complain

[Path Walker]

The rules allow you to make Legions though, its just they're not super competitive. Formations are the answer, and its stuff we're going to see more of as we go along, new detachments and formations that increase the utility of the godsworn units, formations could even stick to the holy numbers in squads, we've seen something like that with the Kharn one

[Auticus]

That they are not super competitive is the root of a lot of complaining.

[Mr Mystery]

3.5 spoiled Chaos rotten. Beardy units up the wazoo, perks with no downsides (Iron Warriors anyone?). Loads of variety. Then it was toned down and taken away, and in the same way Cats have never forgotten they used be worshipped as Gods, Chaos players remember - even if they weren't around for the actual book.

The trouble with the current Chaos Codex is that it's six of one, half a dozen of the other, and has managed to add that up to 'neither'.

It's got some fun units, interesting units, hard units, and 'erm...' units. But overall, it just doesn't quite add up to a compelling army in itself. If you want to run a monotheistic list, there's not exactly a reward for doing so.

Compare to the loyalist Chapters. Each Codex X Marines offers up a different play style from the others, to the degree you couldn't really get away with squidging them all into a unified Codex. You know what you would get if you tried that? The Chaos Codex.

So yes, Chaos does need some work. And done well, it's amazing - look at the Renegade list in IA13. Absolute masterpiece of list writing. Whilst it can seem overwhelming to someone with no clear vision of their own take of Renegades, it doesn't really contrain anyone, and you can knock up pretty much any iteration of Lost and The Damned that you want. Even really, really old stuff - like Chaos Trolls and Chaos Beastmen can be done. But the current Chaos Codex is just a little too bland. Yes, it has flavour inside it, but nothing you can really pile together to make a tasty Legion Sandwich.

Give Chaos what it needs - monotheistic Codecies. One for each of the big four. The Legions can be covered with those. Khorne Bersekers as Troops, but World Eaters for Elites. That sort of thing (well, that's my take anyway)

[Erik Setzer]

Ah, I remember the old 3.5 Iron Warriors. My dad used that army because it was strong and didn't have to move much (arthritis). Other people used it because it was strong. It was nasty. And then I took a 3rd edition Ork army and beat three of them in a row for the only tournament win I've ever gotten. Of course, I threw typical tactics out the window and just went insane in a way the opposing players couldn't figure out, and Orks in assault were a lot nastier in 3rd edition.

There was also a Nurgle build that made rounds at local tournaments. I can't remember the various versions of it, but IIRC, my dad's was something like: GUCO, Daemon Prince tooled up, Land Raider, Predator with lascannons, Plague Marines with multiple melta or plasma and Infiltrate, multiple units of Plaguebearers, all at seven strong (or 14 for Plaguebearers) to get Nurgle bonuses. Over 50% of the points were in four models, but those models were tough to kill and could stomp things. (Army looked beautiful, too. I'd say I'm biased, but it won painting awards in some tournaments, and people loved it.)

But even the IF SAFH wasn't as obnoxious to me as one of the builds you could do with the 4th edition SM book's "build-a-chapter." Whereas I went with the options to have basic squads Infiltrate and allow them to take two special weapons rather than a special weapon and a heavy weapon (letting them get close to the enemy and walk around shooting stuff), there were some who realized you could build a list with three Devastator Squads with Infiltrate as Elites and three Devastator Squads with Tank Hunters as Heavy Support, and that kind of firepower (especially with the special rules) was just disgusting.

[Mr Mystery]

I used to have an Iron Warriors army. Fully painted too. In fact, it was the easy paint scheme that swung me to them.

In 3.5, I had no downside.

I could sacrifice two Fast Attack slots for a fourth Heavy Support. Sounds tricky, but let's look at my options as they were. Fast Attack 0-1 Raptors - a really hard assault unit that inflicted -2 Ld on units it beat in combat. Chaos Bikes. That was it. Well, Bikes were a bit rubbish, and I could only have one unit of Raptors anyway (if memory serves, only Night Lords had the 0-1 cap removed), so the chances of me wanting to use the two additional slots were virtually nil, especially when I could put in a fourth Defiler....

Absolutely no downside to that. Not one. Sure, I couldn't take Daemons, but I could take lots, and lots, and lots of Dakka. So much dakka. And up to 9 Obliterators when they were obscenely good

And that to me was the ballad of 3.5. Lots of variety, but little of it actually used. Take Daemonic Speed. Everyone just used Daemonic Flight (well, the jump pack one) because it was categorically better. I can guarantee you most Daemon Princes would have had Stature, Resilience, Toughness, Strength, Extra Attack, Visage, Wings and the best save, along with the weapon that ignored Inv saves. A large slice of the possible upgrades didn't even get a look in, because they just weren't as good. Lots of variety, very little balance. No wonder it's missed so much. Any book following it is going to look a bit bobbins by comparisson.

Yet they did tighten it up too much, as I mentioned in my post above.

[Auticus]

I played thousand sons back in the 3.5 days, but not as my tournament list. I do remember everyone and their mother was Iron Warriors.

[Charon]

The chaos complaining is often as varied as the chaos factions themselves but the two that stand out are covered already:

#1 - there is no obviously OP combination with the CSM codex. There are no broken grav guns, no abuseable wave serpent, no wraith knight, nothing that really stands out as something that can play itself while the player sucks down cheetohs and rinses it down with mountain dew and draws breath.

#2 - legion rules. This is a two headed issue. A) no legion rules when marines got chapter rules so "its not fair". B) if legion rules get introduced, if none of them are OP (really strong) like the space marines can get their hands on then also will lead to people being upset.

Would disagree here.
Chaos actually does have a fair share of strong units. The main complaint is rather that none of these has "Chaos Space Marines" in its name. The codex was labeled "Codex: Cultists & Dragons" for a reason after all. The role CSM play in the codex or on the battlefield is rather underwhelming. You see Daemon princes, daemonic Flyers, Cultists, Spawns and maybe the odd Nurgle Obliterator in an average Chaos army which is... quite disappointing.

As for 2 this is also quite understandable. When even the '"Emperors Pointy Sticks" are important enough to receive their own set of traits to distinguish themselves from the "Ultra Ninja Super Marines of Rightousness" it is a hard pill to swallow that warbands of the Night Lords follow exactly the same doctrines as remnants of the Word Bearers. And when the loyal chapter of "Fire Phoenix of Doom" turns traitor, they automatically thrash their armory and fly to the next "equip a traitor" store to fetch their pre-heresy equipment.

[Sting52jb]

You do realize that the Chaos Marine player at LVO had exactly one Chaos Marine in it, a sorcerer, 2 min squads of cultist, two hell blades, and a brass scorpion, the rest was Daemons who summoned more daemons. He's a really good friend of mine and he did great unfortunately he went up against an Eldar Lynx in his first game of the finals and the Scorpion got blown off the table turn one with double 6's on the D weapon chart.

[Eldar_Atog]

It doesn't help that the cultists became the primary troop choice for the Chaos Space Marines codex. I don't mind taking an unit of them.. but I should not be rewarded for taking no chaos space marines (troops/elites) while using the chaos space marines codex.

Chaos (Tzeentch) is my painting project army so I am not looking for a hyper efficient list. I just don't want to feel like I'm not taking a heavy handicap when playing against another fluff player... Winning is not important but I want to feel like my army put in a good effort.

[Erik Setzer]

It doesn't help that the cultists became the primary troop choice for the Chaos Space Marines codex. I don't mind taking an unit of them.. but I should not be rewarded for taking no chaos space marines (troops/elites) while using the chaos space marines codex.

You know, I think it'd be cool if they renamed it "Codex: The Lost and the Damned" and threw in other stuff like 40K Beastmen and all.