The Reasons Players Complain

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

3.5 spoiled Chaos rotten. Beardy units up the wazoo, perks with no downsides (Iron Warriors anyone?). Loads of variety. Then it was toned down and taken away, and in the same way Cats have never forgotten they used be worshipped as Gods, Chaos players remember - even if they weren't around for the actual book.

Strictly speaking, Iron Warriors did have downsides. They were basically barred from taking any of the Daemon (not Daemonkin or Daemon Engine) units. And back then, that was pretty huge. Bloodletters had AP2 and Power Armor. Daemonettes had classic Rending. Plaguebearers were poisoned and really really tough. Even Horrors had mouth-mounted Burst Cannons. And then there were the Greater Daemons... The problem was that they traded these disadvantages for Obliterator spam (they used to be 0-1) in a codex where Oblits were Elite but really should have been Heavy. Oh, the problems that alone would've solved.

People keep going over the broken things of the 3.5 CSM book and always miss the big two: infiltrating Speedlords and Siren. Granted infiltrated Speedlords probably needed an errata to nerf them (making Infiltrate be Infantry-only) and were a fairly obscure trick, but how does everybody forget Siren? And still nobody wept for the loss of Siren. In fact, many cheered. Some of those cheering were even CSM players.

This is all beside the point though. Look at the power armies. Eldar Wave Serpent spam. It's unusually strong, but it's actually fluffy. Eldar are supposed to ride Wave Serpents to war... even if they're not supposed to be outshooting main line battle tanks, but whatever. How about Tau Farsight bombs, suit spam and whatnot? Unusually strong, unusually versatile, and not without some iffy mechanical wonks (Boosting the to-hit roll of Snap Fire? Buffmander ignores how many rules?), but fluffy. Tau are all about using both their technology and their bonds of kinship to compensate for the racial Tau's vulnerability to melee, and they do just that on the tabletop. Tzeentch summon spam? Brutal and nasty, but fluffy. Tzeentch is supposed to be the unstoppable caster army, with only Grey Knights able to match them. Decurion Wraiths. Utterly impossible to kill. But again, fluffy. Wouldn't it make sense that the Necron maintenance automatons would be capable of repairing each other? Now try to play a fluffy Chaos or Tyranid list against one of these other fluffy lists and watch what happens.

Compare Chaos Marines to another weaker codex, Orks. The Green Tide is a very beatable list if you know what you're doing, but at least it works the way it's supposed to (and suffers against the things it should really be vulnerable to, like Blasts and Flamers). Barrel forward and smash things. Doesn't have to be sophisticated. Just has to be sufficiently blunt, and by and large it is. And yet for such a lousy codex in the scheme of overall power, Orks are actually looked upon rather favorably. Their fluffy list does a decent enough job at acting the way they should based on the fluff, yet without being overshadowed by some blatantly more powerful but hilariously unfluffy unit or option (see Nob Bikers). By comparison, I'd have the Brainleech Devourer purged from the Tyranid codex for even half of the fifty-odd worthless units in the codex to actually be viable again.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

except you'd still have the stupid disconnects like the fact that your plague marines loose all of papa nurgles love when they bolt on terminator plate....etc

So you think they should have god themed terminator boxes too? Sounds totally fair enough to me, BA, DA, GK and SW have specific terminator boxes too after all. The FW ones could be a good reference point for plastic kits I guess.

[Charistoph]

So you think they should have god themed terminator boxes too? Sounds totally fair enough to me, BA, DA, GK and SW have specific terminator boxes too after all. The FW ones could be a good reference point for plastic kits I guess.

Of course, there is the Wrack method and include Terminator upgrades on to the Cult Marines sprues...

Or, just include all 5 versions on the Chaos Terminator sprue.

[Charon]

People keep going over the broken things of the 3.5 CSM book and always miss the big two: infiltrating Speedlords and Siren. Granted infiltrated Speedlords probably needed an errata to nerf them (making Infiltrate be Infantry-only) and were a fairly obscure trick, but how does everybody forget Siren? And still nobody wept for the loss of Siren. In fact, many cheered. Some of those cheering were even CSM players.

THIS.
1000 times THIS.

Somehow people tend to forget about Slaanesh Sorc Siren/Lash lists which was GLADLY accepted as bull**** and no chaos player shed a tear about the loss of this particular powers.
But I keep hearing complaints about the Iron Warriors and Oblitrators. While yes, they were and extremely good unit... we can spam them now the same (if not worse thnx to multiple FOC and unbound) as the old Iron Warrior Trait.

As a funny sidenote: The Deathjesters ability does nearly the same as the old Siren did. But this is not a stupid and bull****ty rule like siren was but "interesting" and "fun".
Want so see how this turns out after people realize how broken this is.

Of course, there is the Wrack method and include Terminator upgrades on to the Cult Marines sprues...

Or, just include all 5 versions on the Chaos Terminator sprue.

Actually I would even go further.
Sell a generic CSM Box, generic CSM Bikers, Terminators,...
And then sell a box with bitz only. Heads, Icons, weapons,... for the same price as a standard CSM box. No complete model included, just bitz to add on every other box. Hell I would buy multitudes...

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I think they abandoned "all bits" approach after black templars and dark angels veterans though. I could see cult legions getting 2 week releases each - Power armour kit one week, terminator armour kit the 2nd (make sure both can make multiple units too) , throw in a clampack or two and make sure it all has good rules and that would give them a decent enough representation I think.

[Eldar_Atog]

Actually I would even go further.
Sell a generic CSM Box, generic CSM Bikers, Terminators,...
And then sell a box with bitz only. Heads, Icons, weapons,... for the same price as a standard CSM box. No complete model included, just bitz to add on every other box. Hell I would buy multitudes...

I would love to see something like that. It would be the perfect thing to add a little more spice to my Tzeentch stuff.

Would this work for Nurgle though? Nurgle is just so.... Nurglily.

[Charon]

I honestly do not think they would sell.
Problem is that they cant be arsed to give CSM the same treatment as SM, splitting them in SM, DA, BA, SW, GK.
So it is just one codex which means we have a lot of traitor legions rolled into one and I honestly do not believe that they create plastics for each legion or put bitz for all legions on every sprue. That would indeed be too much to ask.
I also think that GW just lets FW deal with chaos.
Noise marine upgrades are webstore exclusive for example and vastly inferior to FW Kakophoni

Would this work for Nurgle though? Nurgle is just so.... Nurglily.

Should. And after all Nurgle conversions are prett easy to do even for people not comfortable with modelling or painting.

[gruyere]

Heres the LVO list OP has referred to.

[url]http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Vincente-F.-Arroyo-6th-Overall-Las-Vegas-Open.pdf[/url]

Thats what, 300 pts coming from the codex? If you want to run chaos you simply need to rely on FW and daemons, everything else is a joke.

[Eldar_Atog]

I honestly do not think they would sell.
Problem is that they cant be arsed to give CSM the same treatment as SM, splitting them in SM, DA, BA, SW, GK.
So it is just one codex which means we have a lot of traitor legions rolled into one and I honestly do not believe that they create plastics for each legion or put bitz for all legions on every sprue. That would indeed be too much to ask.
I also think that GW just lets FW deal with chaos.
Noise marine upgrades are webstore exclusive for example and vastly inferior to FW Kakophoni

I don't think most of us are talking about legion specific sprues.. It would be Chaos god specific sprues that most of us would want. If we want legion specific stuff, then we either go to FW or wait for FW to do something with our legion. (Fingers crossed for Prospero to come out at the end of this year).

My personal opinion in all of this is that people just want somewhat equal treatment. Every chaos legion does not need a codex... but supplements for the 4 Chaos gods just makes sense. It would require few, if any, new models. The introduction of some unique warlord traits and relics would probably be enough for the majority of Chaos players.

[DrBored]

I love how quickly the thread went from 'nice article' to 'let's complain about 3.5 no longer existing'. Pretty much proves every point I made.

Nice job ignoring that the previous two times we've seen rumors for Sisters (during 5th and 6th) saying there was a codex update we got one. It wasn't an actual physical book, but it was an update. It's only this batch as of this year that the rumors for a rules update didn't pan out.

The only rumors we actually get screwed on are models, and if you look close Sisters players don't take those seriously and more want to confirm they're fake so they can move on with their lives.

But look, the 'update', that digital 'thing' was part of the same system that makes the Sisters of Battle hopefuls so addicted. Slot machines will often pour out small rewards to keep people interested and addicted. The digital codex was that 'small reward' for continuing to be loyal and continuing to pull on that slot lever.