The Reasons Players Complain

[Denzark]

Do you see how, as predicted, we went off topic to discuss the Chaos 3.5 ad infinite? Mebbe the OP had a point...

The only thing I bemoan from 3.5 was all my cult squads numbered for the gods for a free champ. Was it OP I took 6 noise marines and got a free champ? It was a trifle awkward getting back to 10s for later editions...

[Eldar_Atog]

Do you see how, as predicted, we went off topic to discuss the Chaos 3.5 ad infinite? Mebbe the OP had a point...

Yeah, I think OP was pretty spot on.. The ppl that experienced 3.5 are either very nostaligic or very fearful of it making a comeback. I was playing during 3rd but the only person who was using the 3.5 codex on a normal basis was a butt weasel we drove out of the play group within a month or 2. I didn't really experience the 3.5 codex like some of the other vets.

For me, 3rd edition was a long twilight of listening to people fuss about the Eldar in 2nd edition. It didn't matter what I tried to use.. there was always fussing about how overpowered the Eldar used to be. Even when my rule set was in tatters and nothing worked as expected... my army was always the scapegoat.

[daboarder]

The problem is that GW didnt try to build on the design by fixing the issues in the book
It just threw a match in and went back to the bad variant.

I mean how much screaming would there be from marine players if they had just completely scrapped chapter rules instead of fixing them....and those guys are meant to be FORCED to fight generically and unlike the legions.

Dr i think that the side tracking does make your point. The way however from some posters also unfortunately makes the goal of your post unlikely. These people wont empathise with chaos players for the simple reason that it didnt happen to them. Not everyone mind but enough too fuel resentment. I mean look at the people that downplay the issue with sisters of battle

[DrBored]

The problem is that GW didnt try to build on the design by fixing the issues in the book
It just threw a match in and went back to the bad variant.

I mean how much screaming would there be from marine players if they had just completely scrapped chapter rules instead of fixing them....and those guys are meant to be FORCED to fight generically and unlike the legions.

Dr i think that the side tracking does make your point. The way however from some posters also unfortunately makes the goal of your post unlikely. These people wont empathise with chaos players for the simple reason that it didnt happen to them. Not everyone mind but enough too fuel resentment. I mean look at the people that downplay the issue with sisters of battle

It's true, but having this article out there might help a little. Even if Chaos and Sisters players themselves can just understand why they're doing what they're doing, it might help down the line.

Nothing is going to fix it short of a full codex and new plastic line for Sisters, and a new set of Legion rules for Chaos Marines. Only then will I say "Alright complainers, time to pack it up and shut up."

[daboarder]

It's true, but having this article out there might help a little. Even if Chaos and Sisters players themselves can just understand why they're doing what they're doing, it might help down the line.

Nothing is going to fix it short of a full codex and new plastic line for Sisters, and a new set of Legion rules for Chaos Marines. Only then will I say "Alright complainers, time to pack it up and shut up."

I can agree with that.

I also think a good example of solving the issue would be Tyranids, we justifiably complained we were stuffed after the 5th ed book, and the 6th ed book didnt help.

BUT with a dearth of formation, new units (a unit re-design or two) and some love we can now play a reasonably competitive list that FEELS like a tyranid force should. And what do we see in the community, why most of the nid complaints go away, sure we still have our maleceptors and genestealers still have their core problems but for the most part we are no longer the **** kicker army we were in 5th

[DrBored]

I can agree with that.

I also think a good example of solving the issue would be Tyranids, we justifiably complained we were stuffed after the 5th ed book, and the 6th ed book didnt help.

BUT with a dearth of formation, new units (a unit re-design or two) and some love we can now play a reasonably competitive list that FEELS like a tyranid force should. And what do we see in the community, why most of the nid complaints go away, sure we still have our maleceptors and genestealers still have their core problems but for the most part we are no longer the **** kicker army we were in 5th

True. One of the frustrating things with GW in the latest edition has been issues of CONSISTENCY. Pretty much all codices have gotten supplements, but some have gotten more formations or more dataslates than others. The older Codices at this point suffer from having too few options for formations, and many forces don't have many options for allies, so there's a real lack of consistency across their range. Tyranids got dataslate after dataslate after dataslate of formations, while Chaos Marines just got one covering Helbrutes that had formations. New codices like Necrons have tons of different formations and ways to use them and build them, while things like Dark Angels are twiddling their thumbs.

My hope is that going into the next year we see some more consistency, of different codices getting more or less equal treatment to bring them in line with codices that have already gotten a plethora of options.

The obvious hope is for Chaos Marines to get that treatment in the form of Legion or God-specific formations or supplements or dataslates or whatever. It's beyond me why GW isn't capitalizing on this, other than they're saving up for something.

What that 'something' is is totally beyond me. I doubt it's going to be End Times, though that would be the most convenient way for 40k Chaos Marines to get the units and updates they need, however I really have no faith that GW would really do an 'End Times' type thing for 40k, at least not nearly to the scale that they're apparently doing with Fantasy, where whole forces get annihilated.

After all, and I've pointed this out before, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers, and Plague Marines all desperately need updates. Either GW updates them, or they'll do what they've done to Tyranids and Dark Eldar in the past, and just remove them from the Codex completely. Honestly, I'm expecting that this would be more likely than Chaos Marines actually getting Legion or God books.

[lantzkev]

True. One of the frustrating things with GW in the latest edition has been issues of CONSISTENCY. Pretty much all codices have gotten supplements, but some have gotten more formations or more dataslates than others. The older Codices at this point suffer from having too few options for formations, and many forces don't have many options for allies, so there's a real lack of consistency across their range. Tyranids got dataslate after dataslate after dataslate of formations, while Chaos Marines just got one covering Helbrutes that had formations. New codices like Necrons have tons of different formations and ways to use them and build them, while things like Dark Angels are twiddling their thumbs.

My hope is that going into the next year we see some more consistency, of different codices getting more or less equal treatment to bring them in line with codices that have already gotten a plethora of options.

The obvious hope is for Chaos Marines to get that treatment in the form of Legion or God-specific formations or supplements or dataslates or whatever. It's beyond me why GW isn't capitalizing on this, other than they're saving up for something.

What that 'something' is is totally beyond me. I doubt it's going to be End Times, though that would be the most convenient way for 40k Chaos Marines to get the units and updates they need, however I really have no faith that GW would really do an 'End Times' type thing for 40k, at least not nearly to the scale that they're apparently doing with Fantasy, where whole forces get annihilated.

After all, and I've pointed this out before, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, Khorne Berzerkers, and Plague Marines all desperately need updates. Either GW updates them, or they'll do what they've done to Tyranids and Dark Eldar in the past, and just remove them from the Codex completely. Honestly, I'm expecting that this would be more likely than Chaos Marines actually getting Legion or God books.

oddly enough by my count, the army with most formations is tyrannids... eldar, tau, and orks roughly tied for last (lumping all imperium bs together)

[Yonasu]

I don't understand how "CSM got 8th place" has anything to do with csm players complaining. Have you seen the list? cultists as the cheapest troops possible, probably just ran up and died. 2 hell blades & a greater brass scorpion, FW models. sorc + 3 heralds and spawn for summoning i guess. It's hardly a "CSM" list if it only has a ML1 sorc and 20 cultists as the normal units...

[DrBored]

I don't understand how "CSM got 8th place" has anything to do with csm players complaining. Have you seen the list? cultists as the cheapest troops possible, probably just ran up and died. 2 hell blades & a greater brass scorpion, FW models. sorc + 3 heralds and spawn for summoning i guess. It's hardly a "CSM" list if it only has a ML1 sorc and 20 cultists as the normal units...

That was part of the point I was making. It was a jab at "How could CSM players complain when a CSM list got top 8?" and then I turned it around with "However, the list will look nothing like CSM players EXPECT a CSM list to look."

It's all there.

[Clockwork]

But look, the 'update', that digital 'thing' was part of the same system that makes the Sisters of Battle hopefuls so addicted. Slot machines will often pour out small rewards to keep people interested and addicted. The digital codex was that 'small reward' for continuing to be loyal and continuing to pull on that slot lever.

It's not an addiction if rumors of codex updates proved to be true. Seriously, you're stretching here and characterizing a group of players as hopeless addicts who can't help but jump on every rumor like a starving tick onto a dog when the reality is that most of the time we dismiss rumors when they come out. Yes we want to see updates, but many don't think said updates are coming or will ever happen and when those small updates do happen they catch us largely by surprise.

Also you're seriously going to sit there and wag your finger at people for wanting a legitimate update for their army after seeing the quality of new models and response when other outdated armies (Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Necrons) were given an update? Seriously, it's not an addiction to be demanding some proper treatment as a customer.