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  1. #41

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    You miss my point entirely. Easy to do online. Lets leave it there shall we.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Weibert View Post
    formation is not entirely correct. Your friend actually tied for second best tyranid with a list that ran four flyrants and a Hierodule (mine). while I agree with your points that it is important to know your list and know how to run it rather than following the latest net hotness I disagree with your premise that those lists aren't solid choices.
    And this is modern 40K. A unit that was originally intended to be the centerpiece of the Tyranid army is now instead the spammy auto-selection.


    Not in Kansas anymore indeed. The problem is instead of Kansas, it just drunkenly stumbled into rural Missouri.

  3. #43

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    I would even say things like the A-Lance are becoming a gamble; even when you're talking about even a 3 game event, let alone a 6+ one. There are more and more things in the game to keep Knights and some other super-heavies and gargantuans honest; Harlequins being the latest. They can be scary and people see them as a crutch; but we'll see what happens at ADC this year. If it ends up being like the LVO results I think you're going to find them gradually disappear, certainly become less common as people realize putting 400-1200 points into 1-3 moderately sturdy models that are reasonably killy isnt the end all-be all.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Weibert View Post
    formation is not entirely correct. Your friend actually tied for second best tyranid with a list that ran four flyrants and a Hierodule (mine). while I agree with your points that it is important to know your list and know how to run it rather than following the latest net hotness I disagree with your premise that those lists aren't solid choices.
    My mistake re: the missing of him tying for 2nd, congrats! Didn't mean to sell you short whatsoever. This was my first attempt at writing to the community so I do apologize if my message comes off too strongly, something I now know to convey better since my intent was to learn from the feedback I received. I plan on addressing this on my next post, but I'm not saying net lists aren't solid choices, I'm just saying that my observation is that they're bad for the community in many waya for which I'll explain my reasoning later. Net discussion is very good for the community if it's healthy. In its most common form though, you'll see a lot more negative effects on our hobby as a whole. (Somethjng I also plan to address.)

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Popsical View Post
    When most people ask for advice using a list or units which they own they are looking for people to give them their knowledge of using the units to their best, eg. tactics of said unit and best application thereof.
    What we get on the interwebz 99 times out of 100 is "replace said unit".
    There is a fundamental difference.
    Whereas you may find the unit useless, another may have found cunning ways of making it work.
    The people that can find nothing better to say than "its crap don't use it" should let others offer constructive advice.
    You can't comment on tactics if you do not know how the person is playing and what tactics he is applying.
    The only thing you will ever see is their army list... kinda like this:

    *************** 1 HQ ***************

    Terminator-Captain
    + - 1 x Thunderhammer, Shield Eternal
    - - - > 195
    *************** 2 Elites ***************
    Assault Terminators
    10 Terminatoren
    - 10 x Thunderhammer und Stormshield
    - - - > 450

    Vanguard
    10 Vets
    - 9 x Thunderhammer, Stormshield
    - Jump Packs
    - - - > 580

    *************** 2 Standards ***************

    Tactical
    10 Space Marines
    - Melter
    - Multimelter
    - - - > 160
    Tactical
    10 Space Marines
    - Melter
    - Multimelter
    - - - > 160


    *************** 1 Heavy ***************

    Devastor
    10 Space Marines
    - 1 x Multimelter
    - 1 x Missile Launcher
    - 1 x Plasmacannon
    - 1 x Lascannon
    - - - > 200 Punkte


    Space Marines : 1745

    I keep losing every game... what do I do wrong????!?

    And now please give tactical advice without mentioning his list at all according to the information given.
    And if you look up the tactics section, it is full of these "requests".

    Figuring out units is not very hard. The game itself is not really complicated. If you have 2 different units for the same task where one unit is just plain better than the other without any drawbacks (compare Reavers and Hellions for example) there is no way ever to make the first unit perform as good as the other one.
    I actively "work" with people in talking how to make some specific units actually work and what conditions we would need to get certain units to work properly. Most of the time it's just creating very unlikely scenarios where the unit could possibly shine but still performs worse than another (staple) unit.
    So these talks do happen but most of the time they are pointless. Look at Pyrovores and Mutilators for example.

    On a side note, it is a real shame that there will probably never be a tournament scene for players who dont want to field spam and cheese filled lists with trickshot allies. There will always be at least one prize numpty who turns up to crush the spirit from the event so he/she can go home and brag that "i came, i saw, i conquered, aint i great!".
    There could be. It is just that there is not a lot of audience for this scene. This could be EASILY achieved. If you are TO you have the say about restrictions and the acceptance of army lists. NOTHING is preventing you from acting as you please and force that "prize numty" to change his list ot a less spammy one if you organize such an event.
    But you probably won't because of time and money and family and whatever yadda yadda yadda. Complaining about one person is easier after all.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowcatX View Post
    Balance is not "every unit is exactly the same" and it shouldn't be. Nor is it even every unit is good. That is a pipe dream, it doesn't happen. Not in table top games, card games, role playing games not in any other game where players make choices. If you want that type of balance play checkers.

    Balance is that a variety of armies can compete. And they can. At all levels. This has been proven. And yes, in the hands of generals of the same calibur, a highly competitive list will beat a non-competitive one, but again, that happens in every game, it is not unique to table top wargames or to 40k in particular.
    You are perfectly entitled to have an opinion. However, balance can be that every unit is the same. It most certainly is that every unit is close to as good as the other. It is not impossible. It just needs adjustmet, not a total overhaul. This is where GW goes wrong. It does not understand that it's benefit is that the rules and armies are balanced. GW has few ways to achieve this. Easiest would be just to adjust the point costs. They could easily just look at similar units with same roles and balance them out with each other. Then look at the codices as a whole and compare them. Once there are not deathstars and the "tools" are equal to eachother in point for point comparison, balance has been achieved reasonably well. Now we have raveners that cost more than decurion wraiths while being worse in every way other than having marginally more attacks. That's not even a extreme example.

    Like I said, you and I look at this differently. If a codex has 30 units, all but 1 or 2 are not in par within reason and those 1 or 2 units are enough for that codex to compete on top level, you see it as balanced and I do not. I expect the devs to at least try to balance things out OR letting the community do that for them. They think they sell miniatures with rules so they might just as well make the rules and codices playtested by the community before they release them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veteran Sergeant View Post
    And this is modern 40K. A unit that was originally intended to be the centerpiece of the Tyranid army is now instead the spammy auto-selection.
    That is also the thing that makes the game bad.
    Last edited by shiwan8; 02-28-2015 at 05:42 PM.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by shiwan8 View Post
    Once there are not deathstars and the "tools" are equal to eachother in point for point comparison, balance has been achieved reasonably well. .
    ah, so there's one aspect of the game you don't like and you want to get rid of. You think deathstars are an unbalanced aspect of the game that makes the game uneven and shouldn't be present.

    The game is very mutli-dimensional, and meant to appeal to a wide array of tastes. It will never appeal completely in all aspects to any one person most likely. But to muddy things and make everything exactly equal and get rid of the unique things like deathstars, strong units, weak units, everything in between, is to make a bland mush no one likes.

  8. #48
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    Eliminating deathstars completely has nothing to do with balance. Deathstars have weaknesses, and there was only I think one real deathstar in the top 8 at the LVO.
    I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLink View Post
    Eliminating deathstars completely has nothing to do with balance. Deathstars have weaknesses, and there was only I think one real deathstar in the top 8 at the LVO.
    Indeed, I have to agree. Dealing with Deathstars is simply part of the meta you have to prepare for, just like dealing with fliers and dealing with Imperial Knights and Drop Pods. If you can't deal with them, you need to reevaluate your list, or else you'll be stomped by them.

    Deathstars can be neutered simply by throwing small sacrifices their way. Preparing Combat-squaded Tactical Marines, Conscripts, Cultists, or Gaunts and throwing them in the way of a charging Deathstar is a great way to make sure they don't make their points back or target the really juicy stuff of your army. Blocking their advance with LOS-blocking Rhinos also slows them down considerably. While they have the benefit of survivability and offensive power, only a couple have any measure of mobility. They also eat up a lot of points, and part of their tactic is to MAKE YOU SHOOT AT THEM. If you don't shoot at them, Death Stars aren't doing their job, so focus your attention on the rest of their army, since chances are, that Death Star doesn't have Objective Secured.

  10. #50

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    this edition and all that has been released over the past two years has really changed alot of dynamics, and opened up the possibilities well beyond what the game was except maybe in 2nd edition and prior... although with alot less herohammer

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