Imperium or Traitors - Who is in worse shape?

[Mr Mystery]

How do!

Another poser for you to get your brainteeth round.

The core of the 40k setting, like it or not, is Chaos V Imperium (largely Chaos V Everyone, but mostly they're after the Imperium).

The Heresy saw both sides fairly comprehensively shattered. Imperium lost it's cohesion and a colossal chunk of it's military might (both men, materiel, and of course knowledge). Chaos gained part of that might in the form of surviving Traitors, but as we have seen in the modern day background, the cohesion of the Traitor Legions is all but gone.

But from a purely logistical point of view - which side is in worse shape? I'm using quite specific wording here, as I want to ask as neutral a question as I can!

Right, off you go!

[Psychosplodge]

Shouldn't this be a poll? We don't have enough polls these days...

[Mr Mystery]

Everyone back on topic........now!

[Psychosplodge]

They're both equally bad hence the otherall stalemate, though you could argue the Imperium's are better because they're countering more threats, but not better by enough to do anymore more than maintain the status quo.


Better?

[Mr Mystery]

More depth!

What are the relative strengths and weaknesses?

[Ivarr]

I think that it comes down to numbers...but not Space marine numbers...Astra Militarum numbers vs. demon numbers. The number of marines in the universe on both sides is minute...the number of AM/demons is vast.

[Charon]

I think that it comes down to numbers...but not Space marine numbers...Astra Militarum numbers vs. demon numbers. The number of marines in the universe on both sides is minute...the number of AM/demons is vast.

It is hardly a numbers game. There are great many empires in human history that did not go down because of numbers but because of other reasons.

Small things can have a huge impact or not matter at all.
A planet full of 200 billions imperial citizens was just destroyed? Not a big deal... probably the imperium will notice in a few decades when taxes are overdue.
Make that an important farm world with an astropathic hub and the whole subsector might wither and rot while the imperium tries to form a fleet to investigate from surrounding sub-sectors.
Communication is slow, travel is slow. A lot of planets serve a single purpose unable to sustain themselves without the infrastructure of the imperium.
And while the imperium would be extremely potent if they ever could retailate (there is little to nothing which could oppose an imperial hammer blow if they strike with full force) most of the threats do not offer a chance to strike back.

[Psychosplodge]

True. In theory, the Tau should be a stain and a memory rotting in the imperial archives. The other threats, the logistics, factionism and the stretched nature of the Imperial warmachine mean as long as they aren't the most pressing threat they'll continue to survive. But if sales drop and they get squatted...well that latest imperial crusade of extermination was a resounding success

[Mr Mystery]

Yep.

I'd wager that if the Imperium could somehow comprehensively deal with a single foe, the others would soon follow suit, as it would inevtiably free up a lot of troops.

But that's another topic. And one I shall start!

[Denzark]

To answer the question...

From a PURELY LOGISTICAL point of view...

I'd say traitors. I know, I know, some people will refer to YorkNecromancer's wonder-post about why CSM don't get all the gear...

But I didn't agree with that. Because of the 'logisitical model' referred to in Gaunts Ghosts - the Sabbat Worlds show how the Chaos powers do a direct counterpoint to imperial society, mass industrial production, grand strategy etc. Also because 10000 year old war experts do not use a primary weapon system they have difficulty getting ammo for - ie the Bolt Gun.

But logistically - the Chaos supply chains are smaller, given smaller territorial areas in realspace. This makes supply easy. If they are out on a limb, conquest wise, away from the eye of terror, they don't have the logisitical nightmare of the Departmento Munitorum. A liberation crusade would probably be prevented from resupplying from the nearest ForgeWorld if the relevant forms hadn't been filled in. Chaos just take what they want.

Maintenance wise, Imperials are stuck with the input and strictures of the Mechanicum, and variance from these is either treason or heresy. Traitors and rebels can just improvise and fix kit how they like - assuming it isn't powered or maintained by esoteric means like the Warp.

Oh yeah, the Warp. Imagine having an endless source of power that providers numberless troops, energy, destructive force. All dependant on local human emotions. And you don't have any restrictions, your most powerful people don't get stolen on a Black ship and sacrificed.

A fully equipped imperial crusade is a huge focussed undertaking, on a war footing. Once everything is on the roll it is well nigh impossible to stop due to mass.

But until it gets to that point, logistically i think Chaos have it easier day to day than say, a planetary governor relying on a PDF and his innate wit to protect him until reinforcements arrive - that is hoping the Warp doesn't make the astropathic SOS go haywire and appear 200 years too late...