My Meagre thoughts on Competitive 40k

[silashand]

The biggest problem I see is that people who do not want to play competitive just ***** and moan about player who just want to play competitive.
Just look around and try to find a single thread or post on how it is wrong to be a fluff player or how a narrative campain cant be fun and people should stop playing it.

On the other hand you will find a lot of posts trying to tell you how you are wrong when playing competitive, how you can't have any fun playing competitive and how people should stop asking for balanced rules.

IMO this is what happened to WFB. GW listened to those people and subsequently lost players for that game, players they have yet to recover even 5 years later. Yes, I know there will be people who say WFB is thriving where they are at, but I have to guess they are in the minority based on most of the locations I have seen. If GW decides to go that route with 40K then I have to wonder if the outcome would not be similar. JMO though...

[Brother Claudio]

Yep. Fantasy players I know generally have a tight knit group they are happy to stick with and I feel 40k players could take a lot from that. But yes fantasy has suffered hugely. The end times seems to have at least bought a buzz to the game even if it Dies out after its over. I hope 40k doesn't suffer the "balance" people seem to want. The unbalanced aspect is part of why I love it and more representative of different armies.

[gory_v]

All of the prop in the world for using the Man City analogy. All the money in the world won't buy the Sheik any success outside if a single league title, League Cup, or FA Cup; though we'll see how the UCL shakes out.

I feel like a lot of people look at competitive 40k more from a director of football or managerial perspective rather than that of the player. As a manager/director, you put the most efficient players and pieces together within your system and try to beat the other manager's team. In my approach to 40k, I like to take the perspective of a player who has to improve by drilling and putting in my due diligence with what I have available to me. I may not be able to ever beat someone to a header who is a full foot taller than me, but I'll more than likely have advantages in other apspects of my game. Coming from a background in hockey and golf, it's strange to see a community where there's this common fallacy that you can buy wins by purchasing the best toys.

[miteyheroes]

Just look around and try to find a single thread or post on how it is wrong to be a fluff player or how a narrative campain cant be fun and people should stop playing it.

There are hundreds of posts about how 40k needs to be more balanced, more competitive, less random. Posts by people *****ing about the randomness of the Daemon Warp Storm chart. Or the randomly allocated rules, like Psychic powers/C'tan/Possessed/Daemon Rewards. Or random charge distances.
If 40k was more balanced and less random, and got rid of those silly things, it would be less fun to me as a narrative player.

[Charon]

There are hundreds of posts about how 40k needs to be more balanced, more competitive, less random. Posts by people *****ing about the randomness of the Daemon Warp Storm chart. Or the randomly allocated rules, like Psychic powers/C'tan/Possessed/Daemon Rewards. Or random charge distances.
If 40k was more balanced and less random, and got rid of those silly things, it would be less fun to me as a narrative player.

And how is that bashing narrative players?
You make up your own rules anyways. I have played A LOT of narrative campains with LESS random (as in fixed WL traits, because your named WL does not change from game to game) with reserves arriving in a fixed number of turns and so on.
Doesn't hurt narrative gaming a bit.
Losing your WL on the first turn on the other hand without your enemy doing anything is a big game destroyer.
Fun part of this is: the narrative gamer will most likely ignore the result as it is extremely anti-climatic while the competitive player has to deal with it.

So please... don't act like both is mutally exclusive or narrative gamers are bound by rules.

[miteyheroes]

Without the randomness, the stories would be incredibly boring and predictable. Whereas the tale of how your army reacted after loosing its Warlord to Khorne's wrath in the 1st turn? That's out of the ordinary. That's unpredictable. That's interesting. That's what I'm looking for!

The battles which we still talk about, years after they happened, are the ones where something amazing and unpredictable happened. Sometimes that's something written into a scenario, especially when you have a gamesmaster. And sometimes it's because of amazing or terrible luck. On my first game with Chaos Daemons, after spending months working on my beautiful force, I won the game without managing to fire a single shot or charging a single enemy unit - because Khorne decided to kill my enemy's army, whilst my daemons just watched, gobsmacked. What an amazing blessing from the gods, and a beautiful baptism! Or the time that a squad of grots had the most amazing shooting round ever, and wiped out the full squad of terminators about to charge them. Or the time that my army of Possessed all rolled wonderfully, and completely tabled the opponent who had said how **** Possessed were as I got my army out. Or the time that the Virus Outbreak Strategy Card removed my ork army from the table before we even started Turn 1. Or the time that Astragoth, High Priest of Hashut, went into overdrive and managed to punch a whole enemy unit of knights to death. Or so on.

[Charon]

Without the randomness, the stories would be incredibly boring and predictable.

I agree. Thats why basic randomness is not a bad thing. Nobody is arguing about getting rid of hit/wound/penetration,... rolls at all. And they are all "random".

On my first game with Chaos Daemons, after spending months working on my beautiful force, I won the game without managing to fire a single shot or charging a single enemy unit - because Khorne decided to kill my enemy's army, whilst my daemons just watched, gobsmacked.

And here we disagree. Becuase this, no matter if won or lost, is incredible BORING. When I bring my army to a table, I want to PLAY. And not just watch how my enemy gets obliterated without ANYTHING he could do to stop it.
If you consider this super fun, please go on. For me its equal fun to kick a 5y old that is already on the ground or cheer my "luck" that my friend broke his ankle in a freindly basketball game... because its... epic.

Or the time that the Virus Outbreak Strategy Card removed my ork army from the table before we even started Turn 1.

Yeah... I bet this was a super climatic and epic game of deploying minis, rolling dice and pack the minis back into their transport boxes again. Other people would call this "waste of time".

And nowhere in your examples was a single reason why a balanced game is bad for you. Because a balanced game would make your "rememberable" peak results even more exiting.

[miteyheroes]

In both those cases we then fought the battle again. And had some good close games. But do I remember the following games as clearly? Nope. Whereas every one of my orks exploding in a mist of virus spores, infecting their neighbours, because they weren't wearing enclosed helmets? That was 20 years ago, and I still remember it and giggle.

Anyway. I've got nothing against people who want well-balanced less random games. Just I wish they wouldn't keep complaining about how 40k isn't that. Because for me that's always been part of 40k's charm. My ork army exploding to a virus outbreak was one of my very first 40k battles, one of the games that got me hooked on this silly hobby.

Actually, Forgeworld making 30k is great because of this. If you want a better balanced game, there's 30k. If you want a more madcap game, there's 40k. Perfect!

[Charon]

In both those cases we then fought the battle again.

And there we are. EXACTLY what I was saying.
You can just do it again or ignore the result.

But do I remember the following games as clearly? Nope.

to be fair, you do not remember the GAME itself. You remember that outlier of dice rolls.

If you want a better balanced game, there's 30k.

Would you please point me to the ruleworks covering Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orcs, Necrons, Daemons, Battle Sisters or Tyranids in that "well balanced" 30k? Would much appreciate it.

Because for me that's always been part of 40k's charm. My ork army exploding to a virus outbreak was one of my very first 40k battles, one of the games that got me hooked on this silly hobby.

And interestingly, that same virus card is even for most fluff bunnies and beer and bretzel gamers the most stupid and worst thing 2nd edition had to offer... that and the vortex grenade.

[miteyheroes]

Would you please point me to the ruleworks covering Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orcs, Necrons, Daemons, Battle Sisters or Tyranids in that "well balanced" 30k? Would much appreciate it.

Removing all of them was how they balanced the game, wasn't it? Although rumours do say we might see Daemons entering the 30k game soon. Will be very interested to see how Forgeworld approach Daemons.

Ah, vortex grenades. The hard counter to herohammer...