Formations & Detachments

[harveydent]

I have some questions, and helpful answers would be appreciated

1) In 6th edition, I could ally any army with itself, allowing me to have 3x HQ from the same codex in one army (or 4x heavy, 4x elite, etc.). Is this still possible?

2) If it's possible, how do I do it with Tau?

3) If I take a formation, do the units in a formation count as units in a detachment? For instance, can I take a Firebase Support Cadre for its beneficial rules, and do those 9 broadsides and 1 riptide take up 3x heavy slots and 1x elite slot in my Combined Arms Detachment?

4) In the situation in #3, can the units from a formation be spread across multiple formations and/or detachments?

Thanks!

[Houghten]

1) It's even more possible than it was before; you no longer need to be over 1000 points to take a second Combined Arms Detachment. Or a third, or a fourth...

2) Just organise the models you want to take into Detachments. Tau don't have access to their own Detachments like 7th Edition codexes do, so you'll be sticking with Combined Arms Detachments (and potentially Allied Detachments; I'm not certain if Farsight Enclaves and Tau Empire are considered the same codex for the purpose of the Allied Detachment's "may not be from the same codex" rule) and that one Formation.

3) No. Each detachment and formation is separate; just like a model cannot belong to more than one unit, a unit cannot belong to more than one detachment.

4) See 3).

[Charistoph]

1) In 6th edition, I could ally any army with itself, allowing me to have 3x HQ from the same codex in one army (or 4x heavy, 4x elite, etc.). Is this still possible?

You could not in 6th. The Primary Detachment and Allied Detachment had to be from different Factions. There were a couple situations where there was a way to have separate Factions within the Faction, though (Codex Space Marines Chapter Tactics, Tau Farsight Enclaves, Black Legion, etc).

In 7th, the Allied Detachment still exists, it just cannot be of the same Faction as the Warlord. All the same opportunities as above still apply, though, so an Allied Detachment of Codex Tau could be added to an army with a Farsight Enclave Warlord.

Otherwise, you can use as many detachments as you want and they still follow all Ally rules to each other. So you can have 3 Combined Arms Detachments (CAD, aka the old Primary Detachment/Force Organization Chart) of Farsight Enclave Tau so long as your points hold up. And they would treat each other as Battle Brothers.

2) If it's possible, how do I do it with Tau?

Codex Tau and Farsight Tau can be classified as two different Factions for the purposes of using the Allied Detachment.

However, you are not limited to using the Allied Detachment for an "allied force", and use a full CAD to bring one in. In other words, you can have a Farsight CAD, Codex Tau CAD, and Tyranid CAD all in the same army. (Whether you WANT to or SHOULD is a different story).

3) If I take a formation, do the units in a formation count as units in a detachment? For instance, can I take a Firebase Support Cadre for its beneficial rules, and do those 9 broadsides and 1 riptide take up 3x heavy slots and 1x elite slot in my Combined Arms Detachment?

Yes. Formations are detachments on their own. Units can only belong to one detachment, though, s they do not take up FOC slots in any other detachment (there are ways around this, though, see the new Necron Decurion Detachment).

In fact, you can build an army made up entirely of Formations without ever taking a single CAD.

4) In the situation in #3, can the units from a formation be spread across multiple formations and/or detachments?

Nope. They are on their own for the purposes of determining which detachment they are in.

[SnakeChisler]

Enclaves is a supplement on top of Tau Empire replacing/enhancing certain parts

You don't ally with yourself (Tau/Tau)

To make this legal objective secured for 7th you'd take them as Double CAD

The comp lists I've seen for this have all been double CAD with 2 min squads of fire warriors & the Buffmander with the rest Enclaves.

I don't really see the point if its a social game though just stick with 1 or the other and get a proper ally to add a bit of variety to your games.

[Charistoph]

Enclaves is a supplement on top of Tau Empire replacing/enhancing certain parts

You don't ally with yourself (Tau/Tau).

Supplements are classified as being of the same Faction as their Parent Codex. A Tau army built using the Farsight Enclave Supplement is Faction: Tau. However, Farsight Enclaves have special permission to ignore certain things when in the same army as Codex Tau, and that is basically they consider Codex Tau as a separate Faction for creating Allied Detachments (and vice versa).

And yes, you do ally with yourself. The Ally rules apply between Detachments. One reason the Battle Brothers rules were changed. The Ally chart even shows members of the same Faction are classed as Battle Brothers to themselves. The Imperium Factions, Chaos, and Eldar get to add some Factions to their Friends list, though.

[SnakeChisler]

I don't think were talking about the same thing my point was you can't ally as in take Buffmander + 1 Troop to make the list legal you need Buffmander + 2 troops because your not supposed to ally with yourself.

Once you've built the list its all the same faction as you said so they can behave as best Bro's as much as they like.

Supplement is to me supplemental rules and options to the main codex for example Clan Rauken, there still Codex Space Marines?

Not codex Clan Rauken and we have examples of mini codices in Codex Legion of the Damned & Codex Assasins

[Charistoph]

I don't think were talking about the same thing my point was you can't ally as in take Buffmander + 1 Troop to make the list legal you need Buffmander + 2 troops because your not supposed to ally with yourself.

Ally rules are not just restricted to the Allied Detachment any more. That's what I've been saying.

Once you've built the list its all the same faction as you said so they can behave as best Bro's as much as they like.

Ally rules still apply between Detachments. Not to mention list building still looks at how the detachments are created and their relationships to each other.

Supplement is to me supplemental rules and options to the main codex for example Clan Rauken, there still Codex Space Marines?

Not codex Clan Rauken and we have examples of mini codices in Codex Legion of the Damned & Codex Assasins

Clan Raccoon operates under the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics. If you take Imperial Fists Tactics Space Marines under a Clan Raccoon Warlord, the Fists can be taken as an Allied Detachment per the rules of Chapter Tactics, even though they are both Faction: Codex Space Marines.

So, too, can Farsight Enclaves with Codex Tau, and vice versa. It's all in their rules.

The same could not be said of plain Iron Hands Space Marines under a Clan Raccoon Warlord, though.

[SnakeChisler]

I hear what your saying but even after re-reading it I'm not totally convinced, the SM Dex was probably a bad example given they have a special allies rule. I've really not got anything to add but I've put some relevant text for anyone following the post.

From Allies

"All units chosen must have the same Faction (or no Faction).
All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction)."

and from Farsight

"A Codex TAU Empire Supplement"

further on

"The Army of the Farsight Enclaves: Alterations and additions to the rules given in Codex: Tau Empire"

[Charistoph]

From Allies

"All units chosen must have the same Faction (or no Faction).
All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your Primary Detachment (or no Faction)."

That's the Allied Detachment, not Allies. Don't confuse the two. If I have a CAD of Necrons and a CAD of Space Marines, they are still Allies and follow the Ally rules.

In 6th Edition it was different since there was only the Primary and Allied Detachments (outside of scenarios), and both detachments of the same type had to be the same Faction (again, Codex Marines and a few others are a little funny here).

7th Edition is a completely different ball of wax, though. You can have as many detachments as you want, and they can all be different Factions. Only the Allied Detachment is restricted on not being the same faction as the Primary Detachment, which is the detachment the Warlord is in.

and from Farsight

"A Codex TAU Empire Supplement"

further on

"The Army of the Farsight Enclaves: Alterations and additions to the rules given in Codex: Tau Empire"

And farther down the line, under The Army of the Farsight Enclaves > Allies:
"In addition to following the Allies Matrix for Codex: Tau Empire, Farsight Enclaves detachments and Codex: Tau Empire detachments may ally together as Battle Brothers."

This from the time of when Allies was only available as the secondary detachment.