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  1. #11
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    We tried this system out, including a community lead comp council, and it didn't work for ****. Everyone eventually despised it, people stopped attending events, attendance from visitors from nearby cities basically disappeared, all while non-comped ITC/Frontline Gaming events were skyrocketing in popularity.

    I can give a big thumbs up to the Frontline Gaming format, though. The missions have a ton of depth (even if I still don't care for the randomness aspect of the Malestorm missions and if some of the core rulebook missions are poorly worded), and the minimal restrictions seem to be just about right to keep the meta running smoothly. You can debate over some minor aspects, but as a whole the format works great.
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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLink View Post
    We tried this system out, including a community lead comp council, and it didn't work for ****. Everyone eventually despised it, people stopped attending events, attendance from visitors from nearby cities basically disappeared, all while non-comped ITC/Frontline Gaming events were skyrocketing in popularity.

    I can give a big thumbs up to the Frontline Gaming format, though. The missions have a ton of depth (even if I still don't care for the randomness aspect of the Malestorm missions and if some of the core rulebook missions are poorly worded), and the minimal restrictions seem to be just about right to keep the meta running smoothly. You can debate over some minor aspects, but as a whole the format works great.
    Why do you think the comp failed in the first place?

    Do you think 40K gamers just want to freestyle and take whatever they want with no regard towards non-spammy, ultra-competitive play?
    HERO's Gaming Blog

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by HERO View Post
    Why do you think the comp failed in the first place?

    Do you think 40K gamers just want to freestyle and take whatever they want with no regard towards non-spammy, ultra-competitive play?
    I'll tell you why such things fail with me.

    I'm skeptical of TOs that have a long laundry list of how they want the tournament set up. Specifically when it limits alot of options they perceive as "op." For leagues or what not, have at it with whatever restrictions, it's not a competitive thing normally (or is with alot more gentleman's agreements) In this set up specifically, we can tell that void shields and sky ray are viewed as OP to some extent. Yet void shields are completely negated by getting within that 12inch bubble, or by simply removing the armor 12...

    Let's look at a 1850pt list that decided to run a vortex generator and 5 barricades. They spent 150pts on something to make them more survivable... 150pts... nearly 10% of the 1850 allowed in something with zero offensive capability, and is entirely negated (except the barricades and even then maybe) by drop pod armies and other very fast/mobile armies.

    So when some arbitrary "tax" gets applied to it or limit, it makes me wonder why, I look at the impact it has on my army I planned on playing and what army it favors and what armies it restricts more than others. So take this for instance, there are huge restrictions to tau. I could take three riptides, but no broadsides (for some unknown reason), and no void shields/sky ray... For a competitive gun line, you can take or not take void shield over aegis line... but again it's a why can't I thing?

    Hell if I took a firebase formation, I'd be at 3 points... so I could add a defensive line, but then as tau nothing else can be added, so it's all up to tanks or lots of suits etc. It all starts to look arbitrary.

    Guards are randomly limited by chimeras and nothing else? When was the last time chimera spam was an issue for any army?

  4. #14

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    I think when people see restrictions, or any kind of restrictions, they think limitations for one particular army. Like you said, you mentioned Guard, Tau, and other armies being taxed unequally. This is true, but all armies are not created equal. You can still have 2 Riptides in an army with 2 unit of Broadsides. Likewise, you can have multiple Chimeras, up to 7 in fact for 5 points and that's not a problem. What you won't be able to have, is 7 Chimeras with additional allies generating extra points, like Azrael, or Power Field Generator, or everything on a Void Shield, or drop pod Centurians.

    Game balance is done as a whole, and not as a vacuum. What this short set of restrictions is set out to do is limit the top-tier combos and craziness that better books can employ so lower tier books can play on the same level. You won't be able to field Green Tide with 3x Void Shields, only 2 at max, which also means no Blitz Brigade in the same list if you choose to do so. You won't have Draigo, Centurian Deathstar with Tigurius, since you won't be able to fit it. You will still be able to field 3x Hive Tyrants, but not any more than that, and you won't be able to fit 3 and take Assassin Brood at the same time. Likewise, you will not be able to take multiple Wave Serpents and still have double Wraithknights in the same list.

    It's just a different type of game, one that breaks the meta and puts you back to something that resembles more like the game back in 5th. I left the actual document at work so I can't work on it more tonight, but the fact of the matter is, some people prefer to play something not as crazy. Not all of us enjoy playing 5x Flyrants, WS spam 2x WK, IG carparks or 5 FMC Iron Daemons. I don't view that as very competitive, I see those lists as an abomination to what the game should be. I originally designed this document to play inhouse with a bunch of friends, because we think that comp is better than uncomped play. 40K is just too crazy these days if you run with bare minimal comp, at least in my opinion. If you disagree, and think these restrictions will force you into cookie-cutter lists, I challenge you to write out an unstoppable list.

    Don't forget this is a community effort too. If you disagree with something, please, let me hear it. But I need you to think of the game as a whole, with everything together. It's a challenge no doubt, and I sure can't do it on my own and I'm asking for help from the community to point out the flaws and tell me what is bull**** and what isn't.

    Maybe a competitive ruleset is not what it should be called, but rather fairplay ruleset.
    Last edited by HERO; 03-11-2015 at 11:37 PM.
    HERO's Gaming Blog

  5. #15
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    People that want to win will do so by exploiting rules to their advantage, ignoring the spite of those rules to increase their likelyhood of winning. Written comp systems just give them another layer of rules to take advantage and manipulate of while restricting the players who are more balanced anyway.

    Best tournament I ever attended had the following comp system "this is a friendly game, we want a good day of playing the game with good people, so don't be a dickhead, leave your spam bull**** at home and chill out." That, combined with a nice selection of missions and terrain made for some really interesting games.

  6. #16

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    Yep.

    Comp does not remove spammy lists or power lists.

    It just changes what a spammy or power list looks like.
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  7. #17
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    Actually the problem with such comp systems are the gamers that constantly ***** and moan about how the game shouldnt be balanced, cry about "whiners" who want balance (then whine themselves about comp) and usually loudly proclaim that they dont play competitively when such conversations are had in different threads.

    If done right comp can work. But it is a lot of xonstant work on the part of not just the person organizing it but the community as a whole.

    In Australia at least comp is the only thing keeping 49k events above the water

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    Yep.

    Comp does not remove spammy lists or power lists.

    It just changes what a spammy or power list looks like.
    Have you read any of the latest generation of comp systems?
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HERO View Post
    Why do you think the comp failed in the first place?

    Do you think 40K gamers just want to freestyle and take whatever they want with no regard towards non-spammy, ultra-competitive play?
    Lots of little reasons. No one can really agree on what's actually broken or not, everyone wants to nerf every army but their own, and people get annoyed when suddenly their army either isn't legal or takes so many comp hits you'll never win anything. It also gets very complicated. That's probably the main reason attendence dropped. Why would I drive an hour to play in an event that has a bunch of complicated rules that I don't have the time to bother to sit down and try to figure out. When building an army feels like I'm doing taxes, that's too much work.

    Really, the comp system takes the game a little too seriously, and assumes the game is more poorly balanced than it is. And, really, a rules comitee isn't actually any better at balancing the game than GW is. The good players still managed to figure out some brutal lists that worked within comp, while the had even softer opponents than normal, and the exact same people won as normally would. The only percievable difference was the extra headache involved in writing lists.
    I am the Hammer. I am the right hand of my Emperor. I am the tip of His spear, I am the gauntlet about His fist. I am the woes of daemonkind. I am the Hammer.

  9. #19

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    I updated the rules package again, as you can see it, it is VERY light on restrictions and more or less plays towards the "don't be a douchebag" list.

    However, I see Imperial Guard as being a problem here. Can you guys inform me on what the most broken combinations of Guard can look like under this ruleset?
    HERO's Gaming Blog

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by HERO View Post
    I updated the rules package again, as you can see it, it is VERY light on restrictions and more or less plays towards the "don't be a douchebag" list.

    However, I see Imperial Guard as being a problem here. Can you guys inform me on what the most broken combinations of Guard can look like under this ruleset?
    Why on earth would we do that, there's no broken guard lists out there, just ones that are very much a paper to some rocks.... This doesn't make them op or broken, just hard to play against if you're not scissors.

    If you're trying to make all the games "only skill on battlefield and luck matters" just write them all a list and go from there.

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