Codex: Kae'Moda Republic

[Madness]

I'm sorry if I offended you, my concerns were just that, concerns, and not insults or anything.

Space Marines names are from a long tradition and are therefore "locked" in the current language, albeit most recent stuff does comply (vanguard/sternguard for instance). Artworks are very varied and seldom feature multiple units. There's no indication of how a unit works with another, or what's the overall army structure.

[Oberst Viktor Morte]

No offense taken. Apologies on the less than curt response, as I didn't know quite how you intended it. (Hard to tell intentions on the internet and all.)

Well, I can see what you mean about the naming and artwork. However, being a poor college student I can hardly afford a team of artists to whip me up some artwork. =P What do you mean about the overall structure and how units work with one another? Being that I made this, it's a tad hard for me to see things from an outside perspective. If you could give some examples, I might be able to better pick up on it.

Also, having said that you're a fluff buff, would you mind taking a look at the history summary in the second post? I've been dying for someone to give some feedback on it, but no one has yet to do so. =(

[Nabterayl]

~M23 Group of colony ships set out to the Alba Cluster. These are corporate owned, and sent off with the intent of founding a new empire.

You mean the colony ships are owned by the colonists, who have formed a corporation for the purpose of pooling their resources? I have a hard time imagining a corporation funding somebody else to start a new empire.

~M26 Ships settle across the Alba Cluster, Kae'Moda founded. Nearby colony of Etrui rapidly expands and spreads a sphere of influence over other colonies, including the Kae'Moda. It is in this time frame that psykers and Warp anomalies begin to appear, albeit only in minor instances.

~M27-30 The Etrui begin wars against Chaos, and during this the Kae'Moda seize territory and their independence from the Etrui. The Kae'Moda then proceed to fight a number of wars, winning and losing, against the Etrui, Chaos, and the other corporate colonies. This results in the Kae'Moda establishing their own sphere of influence and forming themselves into a Republic.

They begin wars against ... Chaos? Chaos what? You mean the Ruinous Powers begin to infiltrate colonial society and are recognized as a threat? If so, I'd actually be curious as to why. To me, the four dark gods are much like the Sith of this universe - their philosophy is attractive, generally moreso than that of the "good guys," and from an objective point of view it's difficult to see what is so wrong about it ... except that for seemingly unconnected reasons, its ultimate expression is often monstrous.

~M30 The Great Crusade comes to the Alba Cluster with a small contingent of Word Bearers and the Imperial Army. They start to fight against Chaos and the colonies but are ultimately defeated. The Horus Heresy prevents a larger fleet from returning the destroy the already devastated Republic.

~M31 Chaos Warband seizes opportunity and invades Kae'Moda space. With little left to defend with, many systems are lost and even Kae'Moda Prime is sacked. It takes over a thousand years to eliminate the warband, reclaim and rebuild to how things were before the Great Crusade.

It takes over a thousand years to "eliminate" a "warband?" What exactly do we mean by "eliminate," and what exactly do we mean by "warband?"

~M33-35 The first of the Xeno-Wars begin as Kae'Moda consolidates colonies under their rule officially and begin to expand into nearby space. In this time three successive wars are fought against an alien empire known as the Hadast, resulting in Xenocide. This is also the first recorded encounters with the Eldar and Orks.

I find this hard to believe. According to the ork codex, in M27 techpriests sent out a deep space probe with the mission of finding the edge of the universe. In M41, having traveled far beyond the edge of the Imperium, the probe is still picking up orkish signals. This means that wherever the Kae'Moda settlers landed, it would have been well within the ambit of ork-occupied space, so I find it hard to believe that they took seven millennia to encounter their first greenskins. Maybe they had the good fortune to land in an area of space that the orks didn't have much interest in or presence on, but seven millennia is an awfully long time to go with no orks coming to call, and once they discovered humies on hand to scrap with ... well, we know what that means.

~M35 Upstart politician Theodore Sempronius takes land, power from Corporations and gave it to the common man. Previously, corporations effectively ran governments and armies, leaving the people in squalor. He was later assassinated, as well as his brother who a few years later continued this platform.

There's an awful lot of history implied here, since unless the first colonists were complete morons, they presumably would have started with an iron control of their colony. Might want to elaborate some more earlier in the timeline to discuss the arc of history here.

~M35 Politician and Marshal Frederick Marcus reforms and standardizes military, and then defeats a looming Chaos warband. Despite his great achievements, his patron is arrested and Marcus is forced into exile.

~M35 Cornelius Felix goes off to campaign against biomechanical Xenos, known as the Kushiel, augmented by the development of reliable faster than light travel. While Felix is away, Marcus returns from exile with a small army and sieges the capitol, gaining rule of the Republic, but dies shortly thereafter. After victory against buy not conquering Xenos, Felix returns and takes power for himself, then assassinating political opponents openly.

Wait ... how were they getting around before? Unreliable FTL? How unreliable? And what do we mean by "reliable?" Surely there must have been FTL before now; you can't wage interstellar warfare on narratively meaningful timeframes without it.

~M36 In the wake of political instability for some time, three politicians form a Triumvirate to ensure peace. Gnaeus builds a large fleet and eliminates a recent plague of piracy. Tiberius campaigns against Chaos, removing them as a significant threat in the future. Tiberius returns with his army and demands governmental reform, civil war breaks out. Gnaeus is ultimately defeated, fleeing to allied Xenos (Axg'typ) who betray him. Tiberius annexes Xenos, proclaims himself Dictator until reforms have been made. Assassinated by Senate, who fear losing their power.

Tiberius campaigns against Chaos and defeats it as a significant threat? How has Chaos been expressing itself until now? Defeating the local Chaos space marine warbands is one thing, but if you have a human society that the Ruinous Powers somehow haven't gotten their claws into, that's ... something that needs to be explained.

~M36 A second Triumvirate is formed, including Tiberius's heir Lucius and his Lieutenant Anthony. At first they work together, avenging Tiberius and killing his assassins/conspirators. Both feel the right to rule and a second civil war breaks out, ending in a great naval battle. Lucius the Vindicator carries out progressive reforms started by Tiberius, and even reforms the Republic into an Empire, ruled by succession of chosen heirs appointed by previous ruler.

~M37-41 Second Xeno-Wars begin after further reformation of army with improved technology and tactics. First major wars with Orks begin, some Orks allowed to settle in Kae'Moda sphere of influence. First incidence of Tyrands reported. Era marked by slow, deliberate expansion.

How big is the Empire at this point? See earlier comment about contact with orks.

~M38 Civil Strife and stagnation lead to another Civil War, with the royal guard deposing of the depraved Emperor. Government reformed with Legislative body representing districts based on population and GPD. Dictator may still be appointed by Senate in times of need.

What exactly is GPD?

~M39 Contact regained with Imperium of Man, relations mixed as both wish to absorb population of other.

Wait, wait, wait ... the Empire (are we a Republic again yet?) wants to absorb the Imperium? How big is the Empire/Republic at this point? It takes an awful lot of chutzpah to want to absorb a political entity whose size is unknown even to itself.

And by "mixed," I take it we mean "the Imperium flags this area for an evangelical crusade?" 'Cause if the Imperium found a bunch of humans who didn't worship the Emperor, that's exactly what would happen. They might send missionaries to try persuasion for a century or two, but if that didn't work, the Republic would have a full-blown, full-spectrum, multi-billion soldier war of conquest on its hands. It might take centuries to get around to it, but sooner or later, the Adeptus Ministorum would show up with a crusade at its back to bring the Emperor's light to the Kae'Moda whether they liked it or not.

[Oberst Viktor Morte]

I think a lot of the problems are that I'd made this summary for myself and had the smaller details in my head, not really thinking that they're important for the summary at large. This is going to end up being some fifteen or twenty pages when it's all said and done. That being said, thank you for examining it, as I've really been wanting someone to take a look at it. With some better explanation on these points, tell me if your opinion has changed or if these points still really need some work.

You mean the colony ships are owned by the colonists, who have formed a corporation for the purpose of pooling their resources? I have a hard time imagining a corporation funding somebody else to start a new empire.

No, literally a Corporation wishes to form a small Empire of their own, as what better way is there to earn money and power than to be the government itself? I would find it hard to believe that out of all the thousands upon thousands of colonies formed in the Dark Age of Technology that all of them were funded and organized by the 'Terran Democracy' or whoever was in charge at the time. Something not included here is that the owner of the Corporation who was supposed to be the leader of the colonies, dies whilst in cryo-hibernation.

They begin wars against ... Chaos? Chaos what? You mean the Ruinous Powers begin to infiltrate colonial society and are recognized as a threat? If so, I'd actually be curious as to why. To me, the four dark gods are much like the Sith of this universe - their philosophy is attractive, generally moreso than that of the "good guys," and from an objective point of view it's difficult to see what is so wrong about it ... except that for seemingly unconnected reasons, its ultimate expression is often monstrous.

Again, something I didn't explain too well as it was a brief summary for myself. Chaos infiltrates and takes over some colonies, then proceeding to wage war against its neighbours.

It takes over a thousand years to "eliminate" a "warband?" What exactly do we mean by "eliminate," and what exactly do we mean by "warband?"

A Chaos warband? As in, an army of Chaos soldiers, cultists, Daemons, and the like? It takes a long time to fight off and destroy the army, but the majority of that time is spend trying to rebuild the ravaged colonies that survived, in addition to their armies, and then go about recolonizing those systems that were lost to Chaos.

I find this hard to believe. According to the ork codex, in M27 techpriests sent out a deep space probe with the mission of finding the edge of the universe. In M41, having traveled far beyond the edge of the Imperium, the probe is still picking up orkish signals. This means that wherever the Kae'Moda settlers landed, it would have been well within the ambit of ork-occupied space, so I find it hard to believe that they took seven millennia to encounter their first greenskins. Maybe they had the good fortune to land in an area of space that the orks didn't have much interest in or presence on, but seven millennia is an awfully long time to go with no orks coming to call, and once they discovered humies on hand to scrap with ... well, we know what that means.

Well, until this time all of their history has been in the Alba Cluster and not expanded to anything outside of it. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for their to be a small area in the entire galaxy that doesn't have Orks in it.

Wait ... how were they getting around before? Unreliable FTL? How unreliable? And what do we mean by "reliable?" Surely there must have been FTL before now; you can't wage interstellar warfare on narratively meaningful timeframes without it.

They have FTL travel, but it's going through the Warp with little or no assistance from Astropaths. Prior to the Age of Strife, this wouldn't have been too much of a problem. After all, Astropaths allowed ships to make longer and faster jumps than before, rather than allowing them outright. Consequently travel outside of the cluster was very limited, and many ships were lost yet still to the Warp. During their wars against an alien race known as the Hadast, they lost hundreds of ships and millions of soldiers because of this. However, it wasn't until this point that swift and safe FTL travel could be made, as that they do so without entering the Warp.

Tiberius campaigns against Chaos and defeats it as a significant threat? How has Chaos been expressing itself until now? Defeating the local Chaos space marine warbands is one thing, but if you have a human society that the Ruinous Powers somehow haven't gotten their claws into, that's ... something that needs to be explained.

The Chaos empire that was founded earlier (and reinforced by Chaos Marines in millennium since) still lingered and provided occasional conflict against Kae'Moda and Xenos empires in the area. Tiberius campaigns against them and leaves all planets held by Chaos in ruins. The only exception to this is a small group of systems surrounded by a Warp storm that he is unable to cross.

How big is the Empire at this point? See earlier comment about contact with orks.

Again, it's not as though they haven't been fighting, but rather that this is when it really escalates into total war, rather than border skirmishes and fighting against smaller Waaaghs that invade.

What exactly is GPD?

That's supposed to be GDP; Gross Domestic Product.

Wait, wait, wait ... the Empire (are we a Republic again yet?) wants to absorb the Imperium? How big is the Empire/Republic at this point? It takes an awful lot of chutzpah to want to absorb a political entity whose size is unknown even to itself.

And by "mixed," I take it we mean "the Imperium flags this area for an evangelical crusade?" 'Cause if the Imperium found a bunch of humans who didn't worship the Emperor, that's exactly what would happen. They might send missionaries to try persuasion for a century or two, but if that didn't work, the Republic would have a full-blown, full-spectrum, multi-billion soldier war of conquest on its hands. It might take centuries to get around to it, but sooner or later, the Adeptus Ministorum would show up with a crusade at its back to bring the Emperor's light to the Kae'Moda whether they liked it or not.

It's always been called a Republic, even when it's an empire. It wishes to absorb the nearby systems under their rule, not necessarily the entire Imperium of Man. They have nooo idea how big the Imperium really is.

And as per instantly flagging them for Crusade, maybe not? The Inquisition has been notified, but not until very recently. There are some among the Kae'Moda who think that the Emperor is a pretty rad guy and even those who worship him. For the time being though, I think they have bigger fish to fry than a group of humans not under the control of Chaos who have even gone as far as to protect Imperium planets from the Tyranids. Will the Inquisition form a Crusade to try and reclaim them? Probably. But it's not going to happen within the span of the next few hundred years, at least.

[Nabterayl]

No, literally a Corporation wishes to form a small Empire of their own, as what better way is there to earn money and power than to be the government itself? I would find it hard to believe that out of all the thousands upon thousands of colonies formed in the Dark Age of Technology that all of them were funded and organized by the 'Terran Democracy' or whoever was in charge at the time. Something not included here is that the owner of the Corporation who was supposed to be the leader of the colonies, dies whilst in cryo-hibernation.

This makes a little more sense, but I think you need to refresh your conception of what a corporation actually is. A corporation is a person formed by a group of people who invest their funds into it. Essentially it's an avatar for the group of people who deposited money into it.

Consequently, it's the investors who own the corporation. What you're describing sounds like this:

You come to me and say, "Hey, I'm gathering funds to create a new empire tens of thousands of light-years away, and I'm going to set myself up as ruler; want to donate money?"

I say, "Sure, as long as I get to be a ruler too."

"No no no," you say, "I'm going to be ruler. You don't get a stake - I just want a donation."

"You're cracked," I reply.

If the CEO dies in transit, fair enough. But you've got to explain why rational people would donate their money to this venture. Nobody is going to donate money so that somebody else can set up an empire across the stars.

Again, something I didn't explain too well as it was a brief summary for myself. Chaos infiltrates and takes over some colonies, then proceeding to wage war against its neighbours.

Fair enough, I suppose, though there's still some holes here. "Chaos" is an Imperial-centric concept, after all. From a sociological standpoint what you just said was, "Some colonies spontaneously wage war on their neighbors." That could happen, I suppose, but it strikes me as distinctly ... well, Khornate.

A Chaos warband? As in, an army of Chaos soldiers, cultists, Daemons, and the like? It takes a long time to fight off and destroy the army, but the majority of that time is spend trying to rebuild the ravaged colonies that survived, in addition to their armies, and then go about recolonizing those systems that were lost to Chaos.

So ... an army, then? A really large army? I mean, you're talking about a thousand years of piracy.

Well, until this time all of their history has been in the Alba Cluster and not expanded to anything outside of it. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for their to be a small area in the entire galaxy that doesn't have Orks in it.

I agree that there are certainly small pockets of the galaxy where orks don't live, but I still have a hard time imagining seven thousand years going by without any orks visiting this area of space.

They have FTL travel, but it's going through the Warp with little or no assistance from Astropaths. Prior to the Age of Strife, this wouldn't have been too much of a problem. After all, Astropaths allowed ships to make longer and faster jumps than before, rather than allowing them outright. Consequently travel outside of the cluster was very limited, and many ships were lost yet still to the Warp. During their wars against an alien race known as the Hadast, they lost hundreds of ships and millions of soldiers because of this. However, it wasn't until this point that swift and safe FTL travel could be made, as that they do so without entering the Warp.

Out of curiosity, how "swift" are we talking here? Tau dive drives are safe FTL, and arguably swift, but still about an average of 1/3 as fast as a vessel traveling through the Warp with Navigator or Navigator-like assistance.

The Chaos empire that was founded earlier (and reinforced by Chaos Marines in millennium since) still lingered and provided occasional conflict against Kae'Moda and Xenos empires in the area. Tiberius campaigns against them and leaves all planets held by Chaos in ruins. The only exception to this is a small group of systems surrounded by a Warp storm that he is unable to cross.

Okay, that's fair enough. But there's nothing really Chaotic about an empire. What's pernicious about Chaos is the idea ... the idea that things can be better, that even the blackest despair can be survived, that it's okay to look after one's self, that it's okay to be mad, that fighting with honor matters. Those are the ideas from which Chaos cults spring. How does the Republic deal with them?

It's always been called a Republic, even when it's an empire. It wishes to absorb the nearby systems under their rule, not necessarily the entire Imperium of Man. They have nooo idea how big the Imperium really is.

Why? Most starfaring Imperial subjects, I imagine, are pretty damn proud of the Imperium's immensity. Who has the Republic been talking to that they haven't figured out how huge the Imperium is? Or do they just refuse to believe what they've been told?

And as per instantly flagging them for Crusade, maybe not? The Inquisition has been notified, but not until very recently. There are some among the Kae'Moda who think that the Emperor is a pretty rad guy and even those who worship him. For the time being though, I think they have bigger fish to fry than a group of humans not under the control of Chaos who have even gone as far as to protect Imperium planets from the Tyranids. Will the Inquisition form a Crusade to try and reclaim them? Probably. But it's not going to happen within the span of the next few hundred years, at least.

I don't think the Inquisition has anything to do with this. A group of humans that are not a part of the Imperium doesn't really fall under the Inquisition's mission statement. That is a matter for the Ecclesiarchy, which is part of the reason I question the timing here. Virtually every starship in the Imperium, even rogue trader vessels, would have clergy onboard, and even the lowliest cleric would surely recognize the divine imperative to evangelize fellow humans who somehow have survived for thousands of years outside the light of the Emperor. Shipboard chaplain communicates the existence of the Republic to the Ecclesiarchy via the ship's astropaths, the Ecclesiarchy dispatches missionaries, the missionaries fail to achieve a 100% conversion rate, the Ecclesiarchy requests a crusade be mustered under its leadership, and the Ecclesiarchy-led crusade comes in its billions to spread the Imperial Creed.

That's really the only way I can see this happening. I'm not saying the Imperium needs to crush the Republic, just that the events you've described lead inexorably to the Imperium trying to crush the Republic, and so far there's no convincing explanation as to why that hasn't happened. Two thousand years is a really long time, even for Imperial bureaucracy, so I'm wondering why the Republic hasn't had to deal with an Imperial crusade yet.

In many ways this situation is similar to that of the Tau Empire, which has had to deal with an Imperial crusade, and was really only saved by the arrival of the tyranids. The key differences that you've identified so far are that the Republic makes contact with the Imperium way before the tyranids arrive, and heathen humans would probably be a higher priority for the Imperium than yet another minor xenos empire.

[Sir Biscuit]

Too be fair to his fluff, there already IS a precedent for a lot of the things he's claiming... in that little tech empire on the Eastern Fringe.

While it's true that the Tau did lay a smackdown on some Orks while fighting ove their outer colonies, the Tau were unmolested for virtually their entire history. Only recently, during thier large spere expansions have they really come into contact with them. While it is true that Orks are prolific, I imagine there are sectors of space where they are virtually nonexistant... in fact I imagine it would be quite common. After all, there are PLENTY of imperial sectors that have no problem at all with them at all. The mechanicus probe picking up signal so far out is less of a testament to their saturation as it is to their dispersion.

In addition, the Tau also don't know how big the Imperium is, and they've taken over plenty of Imperial worlds. I imagine it's because when they ask "Hey, new guys, how big is this Imperium of Man anyway?" And the response they get is "A trillion." It's a little hard to take them seriously. After all, I imagine any reasonable government who is presented with the scale and workings of the Imperium would consider it an idea of insanity.

[Nabterayl]

I don't mean to suggest that the Republican fluff can't be what it is. I'm just pointing out that these are things that it would strengthen the fluff to address. Virtually the first thing the tau encountered when they ventured outside of their home system was orks, for instance. And the Damocles Gulf Crusade hammered the fledgling Empire really hard - yes, the fire caste adapted and eventually managed to start holding their ground rather than just getting steamrolled, but what really saved the Empire was the arrival of Behemoth. In this way, the fluff says, "No, a tiny little tech empire, no matter how advanced, cannot hold off an Imperial crusade. We know that, and it didn't, but here's another reason why the empire is still around."

And I think the tau have a pretty good idea of how big the Imperium is, and they want to annex it anyway, because they're arrogant jingoistic *******s that way

[sirrouga]

Sorry to shift gears from fluff to rule set so I'll try to be quick.

I'd like to keep them as Tyranid Hunters. Tyranids are a big deal to the Kae'Moda, and they wouldn't have such a close-combat oriented unit if it weren't for them. I might opt to use the poisoned weapons, as that's a pretty good idea. However, I might also remake them so that they can be used for close combat or ranged fighting, depending on how you gear them.

Something like swapping your close combat weapon for either a Poison Weapon (4+), a shotgun (S3 AP- No Cover Saves?), or an anti-MC rifle (counts as twin linked VS Monstrous Creatures?). Just throwing some random ideas out there, personally I like the Poison Weapons still and shotguns and never bad. :P

In regard to SIB...

Teleporters I'm against. It's supposed to be his special thing and I don't want to take it away. Snipers is a good idea. I also need to put more Sniper rifles out there anyway. As they are now, they have a 5+ normal save, 6+ invul, and FNP. So in the end they're sorta survivable, but not entirely. Psykers in the army I'm against as that the Kae'Moda themselves are pretty hardcore against Psykers. However, allowing for the option to have a bound psyker wouldn't be too bad of an idea (much the same as a bound daemon-host).

Could add Sniper Rifles and Infiltrate. Having Feel No Pain makes up for not having Stealth. Might even be able to drop the armor or invulnerable save too depending on how well geared you want them yet controlling costs.

In regards to Spectres

I see what you mean about that. Make them 11-11-11 or 11-11-10 then? I'm definitely against them having FA of 10 though. I can see how these would be so deadly against other armies, even if all they do is tie up enemy squads, which can be equally bad against armies like Necrons or Tau anyway. I'll soften them up a little bit, but not too much.

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what to do with Spectres. The only way I could honestly see these guys working is either Front Armor 10 or changed into a monstrous creature. A Walker moving that fast is just not something certain armies can deal with. I would need some one's opinion on this one I guess. I understand that they are more meant to tie up but if they kill just one model and the opponent can't affect it, now they have the chance to force the enemy to run away and then sweeping advance them

In regard to the Regular Fire Teams having transports...

They do now, and I like how it turned out. It makes them able to be mechanized convoy, much the same as a modern Platoon in Humvees would be. I like the effect very much.

I wouldn't make it that each unit in the platoon must have a transport, simply due to point costs. Just to have a mechanized troop choice is going to cost an additional 150 - 350 points just in transports without upgrades. Still could keep it that they have to stay each other, just measured from the hull of the transports.

Speaking of transports...

Stalker
50 points is actually too much in my opinion. I would have it setup with a basic Storm Rifle by default and then can replace that Storm Rifle with either a Faust or GEP at their current point costs. Or make it that if no weapon is taken it can hold more infantry so the Elite choices have a better reason to take these guys. Also, are more veteran units driving these things or are Regulars? Just the BS that matters there (BS4 if veterans, BS3 if Regulars). If piloted by Regulars (thus BS3), I could the point cost could go as low as 25 points but 30 would be a safer number. It is an open topped standard vehicle that has less armor than a rhino after all.

Harbringer
Considering these guys are quite similar to the Valkyrie Assault Carrier, having a debatable stronger gun at BS4 for a cheaper cost is a little fishy (granted slightly less side armor and no scout move through).Also the point cost don't match up with the DeathStrike Gunship (base weapon loadout is the same but the DeathStrike is more points without being a transport). Hard thing to really price out considering it's load out as a Transport vehicle. I would keep the Cerberus AutoCannon on the DeathStrike only and put a different less heavy weapon as the default weapon on the Harbringer (A Faust would be best but I could see a missile launcher as an replacement too).

[Oberst Viktor Morte]

This makes a little more sense, but I think you need to refresh your conception of what a corporation actually is. A corporation is a person formed by a group of people who invest their funds into it. Essentially it's an avatar for the group of people who deposited money into it.

If the CEO dies in transit, fair enough. But you've got to explain why rational people would donate their money to this venture. Nobody is going to donate money so that somebody else can set up an empire across the stars.

Your analogy is humourous and makes sense. I was just going by the precedent that in 40K fluff it says that corporations settled across the stars as well, making their own empires. Made enough sense to me. When I write out the fluff in full I'll think up something to justify it.

Fair enough, I suppose, though there's still some holes here. "Chaos" is an Imperial-centric concept, after all. From a sociological standpoint what you just said was, "Some colonies spontaneously wage war on their neighbors." That could happen, I suppose, but it strikes me as distinctly ... well, Khornate.

Well, here's the secret to my history. When I first made it, I made up all of it from scratch. I thought it turned out well enough, but when others cross-examined it more and more flaws were pointed out, and upon reexamining it later I found the overall 'story' of the history to be a bunch of loosely strung together unrelated events. When I set out to remake it I wanted it to have a more 'realistic' feel to it. Thus, I took a cue from GW and did what many a good writer does and I stole it. About half of the new history for the Kae'Moda is actually stolen from real history, and Chaos here is fulfilling a certain role for me that could not otherwise be well done in 40K fluff. Aside from that, Chaos was always their 'traditional' enemy before the emergence of the Tyranids.

Long story short, I'll find a better way to explain how and why Chaos ends up being an actual 'nation' and wars against others.

So ... an army, then? A really large army? I mean, you're talking about a thousand years of piracy.

Well, it's more like fifty to a hundred years of war, which isn't really that unreasonable, and then over nine hundred years of rebuilding and re-expansion.

I agree that there are certainly small pockets of the galaxy where orks don't live, but I still have a hard time imagining seven thousand years going by without any orks visiting this area of space.

You also have to remember that Orks were not nearly as widespread in the Dark Age of Technology as they are in the so-called "Time of Ending". And by not as widespread, I mean that their population and dispersion has increased a hundred fold, at least. Take a look at the map where it says Orks live in the 1st edition rulebook, and then at where they live in the 5th edition. I may decide to introduce them earlier on, but only in minor instances.

Out of curiosity, how "swift" are we talking here? Tau dive drives are safe FTL, and arguably swift, but still about an average of 1/3 as fast as a vessel traveling through the Warp with Navigator or Navigator-like assistance.

I couldn't give you a ratio, but probably somewhere between the Tau and Imperial in terms of speed with their Alcubierre drive, which will get more powerful over time. When it was first invented though, it was probably 1/4-1/5 the speed. This is still not a perfect system, and ships do still occasionally get destroyed this way, as the ship breaks apart when the drive fails.

However, they do have a weapon which works this way, for the drive to intentionally fail. Essentially they have a drone which propels itself at an enemy ship with the Alcubierre drive and then has it shut off while traveling at near the speed of light without the proper counter-measures to slow it down. The drone is not meant to take that sort of speed and as it decelerates naturally the force on the hull breaks it to pieces, causing essentially giant pieces of shrapnel to fly at the target at relativistic speeds. It's sorta like a space shotgun that can destroy entire ships, space stations, or even entire worlds, due to destroying their atmosphere.

In addition, they also have "Jump gates" where they have a number of cosmic strings which connect them, allowing ships to travel at tremendous speeds, but only from one gate to its corresponding partner. I suppose they work somewhat like the gates in EVE online would.

Oh and by the way; **** yeah, physics!

Okay, that's fair enough. But there's nothing really Chaotic about an empire. What's pernicious about Chaos is the idea ... the idea that things can be better, that even the blackest despair can be survived, that it's okay to look after one's self, that it's okay to be mad, that fighting with honor matters. Those are the ideas from which Chaos cults spring. How does the Republic deal with them?

See earlier post about Chaos as an empire, though that's not entirely unprecedented. In the Sabbat Crusade, they were trying to liberate an entire (cluster, sector, group of systems?) from Chaos control. Chaos may not be controlling an empire, per se, but certainly they control a number of worlds and can both attack and defend their own territory, which fits the bill pretty well.

Also, the Republic generally accepts others into their empire and let them continue to believe whatever they want to believe. However, I think that at some point they'll learn the hard way that they can't do this with Chaos cults. I'll try and work that into the history.

Why? Most starfaring Imperial subjects, I imagine, are pretty damn proud of the Imperium's immensity. Who has the Republic been talking to that they haven't figured out how huge the Imperium is? Or do they just refuse to believe what they've been told?

Well, it's in part that they don't really understand what it means that the Imperium claims the entire galaxy under their control. It's also part that they don't really care. These planets are here now, and the Kae'Moda are nothing if not expansionists.

I don't think the Inquisition has anything to do with this. A group of humans that are not a part of the Imperium doesn't really fall under the Inquisition's mission statement. That is a matter for the Ecclesiarchy, which is part of the reason I question the timing here. Virtually every starship in the Imperium, even rogue trader vessels, would have clergy onboard, and even the lowliest cleric would surely recognize the divine imperative to evangelize fellow humans who somehow have survived for thousands of years outside the light of the Emperor. Shipboard chaplain communicates the existence of the Republic to the Ecclesiarchy via the ship's astropaths, the Ecclesiarchy dispatches missionaries, the missionaries fail to achieve a 100% conversion rate, the Ecclesiarchy requests a crusade be mustered under its leadership, and the Ecclesiarchy-led crusade comes in its billions to spread the Imperial Creed.

That's really the only way I can see this happening. I'm not saying the Imperium needs to crush the Republic, just that the events you've described lead inexorably to the Imperium trying to crush the Republic, and so far there's no convincing explanation as to why that hasn't happened. Two thousand years is a really long time, even for Imperial bureaucracy, so I'm wondering why the Republic hasn't had to deal with an Imperial crusade yet.

In many ways this situation is similar to that of the Tau Empire, which has had to deal with an Imperial crusade, and was really only saved by the arrival of the tyranids. The key differences that you've identified so far are that the Republic makes contact with the Imperium way before the tyranids arrive, and heathen humans would probably be a higher priority for the Imperium than yet another minor xenos empire.

Well, this is a compelling point. They may have encountered a Crusade in the past, but their current state remains as it is and so they'd of had to have destroyed the entire Crusade. If they didn't, wouldn't that mean that the Imperium would hear word of it and send a bigger Crusade, and then another, and another, until the Republic was destroyed and the Imperium would have wasted a ton of resources on destroying people who are halfway on their side anyway against Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, ect.

Too be fair to his fluff, there already IS a precedent for a lot of the things he's claiming... in that little tech empire on the Eastern Fringe.

While it's true that the Tau did lay a smackdown on some Orks while fighting over their outer colonies, the Tau were unmolested for virtually their entire history. Only recently, during their large sphere expansions have they really come into contact with them. While it is true that Orks are prolific, I imagine there are sectors of space where they are virtually nonexistent... in fact I imagine it would be quite common. After all, there are PLENTY of imperial sectors that have no problem at all with them at all. The mechanicus probe picking up signal so far out is less of a testament to their saturation as it is to their dispersion.

In addition, the Tau also don't know how big the Imperium is, and they've taken over plenty of Imperial worlds. I imagine it's because when they ask "Hey, new guys, how big is this Imperium of Man anyway?" And the response they get is "A trillion." It's a little hard to take them seriously. After all, I imagine any reasonable government who is presented with the scale and workings of the Imperium would consider it an idea of insanity.

I don't really have much to respond to this moreso than, "Yes, this." Also, I thought the Tau analogy for how big the Imperium is and whatnot was hilarious.

Something like swapping your close combat weapon for either a Poison Weapon (4+), a shotgun (S3 AP- No Cover Saves?), or an anti-MC rifle (counts as twin linked VS Monstrous Creatures?). Just throwing some random ideas out there, personally I like the Poison Weapons still and shotguns and never bad. :P

In regard to SIB...
Could add Sniper Rifles and Infiltrate. Having Feel No Pain makes up for not having Stealth. Might even be able to drop the armor or invulnerable save too depending on how well geared you want them yet controlling costs.

Well, I'm changing the Flechette rifle into effectively a shotgun with flechette shells. 12" S4 AP4 Assault2, if you're within 6" it becomes AP3. And if the Kae'Moda are within 6", something is wrong. An idea, to prevent people from having them instantly charge afterwords (which is against Kae'Moda doctrine with few exceptions) is to make it 18" Rapid Fire.

Also, SIB are getting the option to replace their pistols with rifles, and if they do they can get sniper rifles. I might make it so that they can have two entirely different layouts, perhaps give them options like IG Veterans have.

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what to do with Spectres. The only way I could honestly see these guys working is either Front Armor 10 or changed into a monstrous creature. A Walker moving that fast is just not something certain armies can deal with. I would need some one's opinion on this one I guess. I understand that they are more meant to tie up but if they kill just one model and the opponent can't affect it, now they have the chance to force the enemy to run away and then sweeping advance them.

I'll think on it. I don't like the idea of making it FA10 as it allows Marines to tear it apart with their bear hands (something which always irked me), but I just might have to. They'd certainly get a lot cheaper after that.

In regard to the Regular Fire Teams having transports...
I wouldn't make it that each unit in the platoon must have a transport, simply due to point costs. Just to have a mechanized troop choice is going to cost an additional 150 - 350 points just in transports without upgrades. Still could keep it that they have to stay each other, just measured from the hull of the transports.

Well, they're now 25pts with no upgrades, I'd never gotten around to fixing that when I lessened the armour. They also have two new things about them. Special rule: crew served weapons. Vehicles uses BS of majority of passengers. Wargear: Armoured Compartment. 10pt upgrade, no longer counts as open topped and increases side armour to 11.

Stalker
50 points is actually too much in my opinion. I would have it setup with a basic Storm Rifle by default and then can replace that Storm Rifle with either a Faust or GEP at their current point costs. Or make it that if no weapon is taken it can hold more infantry so the Elite choices have a better reason to take these guys. Also, are more veteran units driving these things or are Regulars? Just the BS that matters there (BS4 if veterans, BS3 if Regulars). If piloted by Regulars (thus BS3), I could the point cost could go as low as 25 points but 30 would be a safer number. It is an open topped standard vehicle that has less armor than a rhino after all.

Err, see above.

Harbringer
Considering these guys are quite similar to the Valkyrie Assault Carrier, having a debatable stronger gun at BS4 for a cheaper cost is a little fishy (granted slightly less side armor and no scout move through).Also the point cost don't match up with the DeathStrike Gunship (base weapon loadout is the same but the DeathStrike is more points without being a transport). Hard thing to really price out considering it's load out as a Transport vehicle. I would keep the Cerberus AutoCannon on the DeathStrike only and put a different less heavy weapon as the default weapon on the Harbringer (A Faust would be best but I could see a missile launcher as an replacement too).

Something I never really noticed, about the Harbinger and Deathstrike. I'll try and work this out. The Harbinger is supposed to be like a Hind, whereas the Deathstrike is supposed to be more like an Apache. I'll try and sort them out.

Again, thank you everyone for your help and suggestions. I'll try and work feverishly on it when I get a chance, trying to provide a new update next week. Oh, and a little note, I changed all the text from 12pt font to 10pt to make it look more like a page from a GW codex. So far I like the look, and it means that I'm going to have to insert a lot more flavour text and background fluff. I'm still going to try and keep the history to 15-20 pages, so that means that I have a ton of history to cover. I think I can handle it. 8)

[Nabterayl]

Your analogy is humourous and makes sense. I was just going by the precedent that in 40K fluff it says that corporations settled across the stars as well, making their own empires. Made enough sense to me. When I write out the fluff in full I'll think up something to justify it.

Yeah, I don't doubt that corporations could do that; it's just that they would do it for their shareholders. If you're familiar with the history of the Star Kingdom of Manticore, I think that's a very plausible way for the whole "corporation-as-star-empire" thing to play out.

Well, here's the secret to my history. When I first made it, I made up all of it from scratch. I thought it turned out well enough, but when others cross-examined it more and more flaws were pointed out, and upon reexamining it later I found the overall 'story' of the history to be a bunch of loosely strung together unrelated events. When I set out to remake it I wanted it to have a more 'realistic' feel to it. Thus, I took a cue from GW and did what many a good writer does and I stole it. About half of the new history for the Kae'Moda is actually stolen from real history, and Chaos here is fulfilling a certain role for me that could not otherwise be well done in 40K fluff. Aside from that, Chaos was always their 'traditional' enemy before the emergence of the Tyranids.

Long story short, I'll find a better way to explain how and why Chaos ends up being an actual 'nation' and wars against others.

I do see the historical parallels, just wanted to point out that the external versions of Chaos are really kind of its least worrisome form.

Well, it's more like fifty to a hundred years of war, which isn't really that unreasonable, and then over nine hundred years of rebuilding and re-expansion.

Ah, fair enough. I like that.

Well, this is a compelling point. They may have encountered a Crusade in the past, but their current state remains as it is and so they'd of had to have destroyed the entire Crusade. If they didn't, wouldn't that mean that the Imperium would hear word of it and send a bigger Crusade, and then another, and another, until the Republic was destroyed and the Imperium would have wasted a ton of resources on destroying people who are halfway on their side anyway against Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, ect.

Yeah, it is one of those irritating facts about the Imperium from a writer's perspective. Here's a couple of ways I can think of off the top of my head to avoid either the "Death by Crusade" or "We Have A Strategic 1000:1 Kill Ratio" results:

1. Intentionally or not, the Kae'Moda manage to stall the Ecclesiarchy because the Imperial Creed makes [perhaps slow] steady in-roads throughout the Republic. As long conversion by persuasion is working, the Ecclesiarchy is loathe to spend the political capital necessary to gather a crusade when it can send more missionaries instead.
2. A crusade is planned, but luckily for the Republic, completely unrelated political infighting between the Ecclesiarch and the means that the Ecclesiarch is unable to muster a true crusade. What does arrive is a mongrel force that, though vast, is just small enough and/or badly organized enough that the Republic can defeat it after a hard slog.
3. A crusade is planned, but only after the Republic had a chance to get some idea of how the Imperium works. Clever Republican politicians are able to gain the support of the local cardinal astral, who favors giving his missionaries additional centuries to convert the Republic rather than the blunt-force crusade option favored by more distant ecclesiarchs. With the local cardinal being as obstructionist as he can, the crusade has a difficult time making headway. Though the Republic is attacked, eventually it is called off for logistical reasons. A portion of the crusade attacks the cardinal as a heretic, and bitter in-fighting consumes the Imperium's attention in the direction of the Republic for some time. The rest of the crusade is siphoned off to other warzones.
4. A crusade is planned, but lost in the warp.
5. The messages of the first astropaths to the Ecclesiarchy are lost in the warp, or garbled so badly as to be unintelligible. Though other parts of the Imperium are aware of the Republic's existence, the Ecclesiarchy remains blissfully ignorant (at a high level) for centuries or even millennia, as everybody simply assumes that the Ecclesiarchy already knows about the Republic and is taking whatever action it feels is necessary.
6. A crusade is planned, but due to an error by the Administratum, it is never actually mustered. Hundreds of Imperial Guard regiments dissolve and "go native" as they languish for centuries without orders, the Munitorum assuming that they have already been ordered to the crusade. By the time the error is corrected billions of Imperial Guardsmen have effectively left the service - ironically causing a greater blow to the Guard than the Republic could ever hope to achieve in its wildest dreams.
7. A crusade is planned, and its overwhelming force rolls into Republican space, but it is siphoned off by a more urgent threat (such as the 13th Black Crusade or a tyranid hive fleet).
8. A crusade is planned, but it is intercepted (intentionally or not) by an ork Waaagh! or tyranid hive fleet.
9. A crusade is planned, but its warmaster is badly chosen, and the Republic is able to direct him away from his appointed task. The Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus eventually realize that the warmaster has gone rogue, but he has planned for this eventuality and the Hereticus' attempts to remove him from power directly fail. The crusade dissolves into infighting as those loyal to the warmaster fight with those who obey the Inquisitorial mandate of whatever inquisitor is sent to correct the issue.

Or some combination thereof. Just some ideas.

I'll think on it. I don't like the idea of making it FA10 as it allows Marines to tear it apart with their bear hands (something which always irked me), but I just might have to. They'd certainly get a lot cheaper after that.

Out of curiosity, does it also irk you that a frag grenade in a joint could damage the walker? Because if not, it might just be that you don't like how strong space marines, orks, etc. really are.