Craftworld Eldar in the rumormill

[daboarder]

They are under costed, there's no doubt about that. But there are lots of things that are under costed in the game. They're not the end of the world. Remember, these jetbikes hit harder than jetbikes did in the last codex, but they're not any more unkillable, and they're not insignificantly more expensive. Or were you utterly unable to kill jetbikes during the old codex as well?

They'll get played, and they'll be good, but I doubt they'll be the 40 - 60 of that people are claiming they are and people are so afraid of. Like everything else, after you hit a certain mass of them, they'll suffer from diminishing returns, especially in groups of 10, where the standard SMU strategy will cause wasted shots.

Shadow, consider this.

Imagine that jetbikes had a 20 guardian tax at 28 pts per guardian (Equally stupid I know).

That would be a 560 pt tax on your jetbikes. Even in a 1500 pt game you could, if inclined, put out 120 S6 shots a turn.....120 with a tax as stupid as 28 pt guardians.....thats a bit beyond under priced mate.

Edit: Now your right, they'll suffer from diminishing returns.

But that 40, thats a single 10 man squad, split that in 3 (for your FA slots) and yout still putting out 40 S6 shots a turn, you're just doing it even more efficiently

What I suspect we'll actually see is squads of say 5 jetbikes, puting out 20 shots each a turn, giving the army as a whole 60 S6 shots for only 405 pts. Plenty of room for D-weapons, Seer support (or stars if they are still a thing) etc.

[Mr Mystery]

They are under costed, there's no doubt about that. But there are lots of things that are under costed in the game. They're not the end of the world. Remember, these jetbikes hit harder than jetbikes did in the last codex, but they're not any more unkillable, and they're not insignificantly more expensive. Or were you utterly unable to kill jetbikes during the old codex as well?

They'll get played, and they'll be good, but I doubt they'll be the 40 - 60 of that people are claiming they are and people are so afraid of. Like everything else, after you hit a certain mass of them, they'll suffer from diminishing returns, especially in groups of 10, where the standard SMU strategy will cause wasted shots.

Yarp. They're undeniably good, but still just single wound, T4 3+ models. Most armies can eat those for breakfast!

[daboarder]

Yarp. They're undeniably good, but still just single wound, T4 3+ models. Most armies can eat those for breakfast!

Mystery, It seriously amazes me the hoops you will jump through.

Jetbikes are not easy to kill as you seem to think they are. That is part of the reason why small scoring squads of them have been one of the favourite Eldar tricks for the last 3-4 editions.

[ShadowcatX]

I'm not claiming people won't field 10, maybe even 15 of them. But I've seen people claiming that lists will have a full 40 - 60 jetbikes (not 40 - 60 shots), and I just can't buy it.

And your scenario, yeah sure, that's great, so long as S6 with no AP is exactly what you need. If you run into something like a riptide, well you know what your 120 shots are doing to it? 2/3rd hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6th get past the armor save, 2/3rd get past FNP (my opponent runs his with FNP, I don't know how many other people do). That's 4.44444 wounds for 810 points. Not exactly a steal.

Again, good, under costed, but not game breaking.

ETA:

Or if you come across the triple flyrant list: 3.3333 wounds to a flyrant, if the flyrant doesn't have FNP. 2.2222 if it does.

[Erik Setzer]

I say as/more because even though they are only T3 they also have a 3+ save and jink

T4, actually. And yeah, 3+ save... I thought it was reduced to 4+, but nope, still 3+. Can't shred them with heavy bolters, you have to go to hardy stuff to knock off their save. And they'll likely be in cover most of the time. Give them a Warlock with Conceal for more fun.

Jink knocks their BS down to 1, so they're not going to hit as much at that point. Better to avoid jinking if possible. Just use intervening terrain and Conceal.

[daboarder]

T4, actually. And yeah, 3+ save... I thought it was reduced to 4+, but nope, still 3+. Can't shred them with heavy bolters, you have to go to hardy stuff to knock off their save. And they'll likely be in cover most of the time. Give them a Warlock with Conceal for more fun.

Jink knocks their BS down to 1, so they're not going to hit as much at that point. Better to avoid jinking if possible. Just use intervening terrain and Conceal.

sorry, I meant T4, its 12 at night over here

[Defenestratus]

Jink too if you need it

and you're shooting 36 so you a lot of things cant even get close to you.

basically they are as or more survivable as a waveserpent and shoot way more.

I say as/more because even though they are only T3 they also have a 3+ save and jink, furthermore they do not significantly lose effectiveness as they take casualties (even at 3 models they put out 12 shots a turn) And people thought Dakka Flyrants we're bad.

Seriously, compare that 40 shots to a Flying Hive tyrant (which is a good model) thats just nuts

10 jetbikes are going to be a huge HUGE footprint on the board. There wont be a piece of terrain that you could legitimately hide them behind to keep them covered. One Wyverrn barrage and most of them are dead as dead. A decent drop podding bolter barrage by tactical marines will kill as many as space marines, your flyrant, tau seeker missiles.... you get the point - there are solutions to this problem.

[Path Walker]

They jink and that shooting suddenly becomes a lot less effective. They're fragile, if you don't jink them, weight of fire will take them down 3+ is all well and good but throw enough dice and they'll be gone.

[Erik Setzer]

Yarp. They're undeniably good, but still just single wound, T4 3+ models. Most armies can eat those for breakfast!

Eh... Not so sure on that. My Daemonkin army might have a good bit of AP3, for example, but a lot of it's melee, which has to chase down models that can move 12+2D6" a turn and are shooting back (which would mow down Bloodletters). The best bet comes in lobbing pie plates from the walkers (the army I've been running has two Defilers and a Soul Grinder, three S8 AP3 big blasts), and trying to figure out how to maneuver around to trap them.

Of course, that's all in a vacuum... and not how the game will go. Pair the jetbikes with a couple of Wraithknights. The Wraithknights will take out the nastier, bigger stuff, and distract a lot of heavy firepower (which would be most of the AP3 stuff), leaving the jetbikes to fire upon weaker targets and dealing more with stuff like bolters, shootas, etc. Weight of numbers might hurt them in time, but they can even the odds with their own firepower. Meanwhile, the whole army's moving around faster than most other armies can fathom (except a Marine bike force, maybe).

[Path Walker]

I'm just going to plonk my Plasma Obliterator in the middle of the board and take them both out.