Stop Your Whinging!

[Kirsten]

the ruleset is balanced. it isn't perfect, it could always be better, but it is balanced. claims to the contrary are just internet complaining that goes round and round ad nauseam. you might start a game and discover that what you have chosen doesn't have much of a chance against what your opponent has chosen, but that is the price of flexibility and having such a huge range. there has never been a situation in which army book a cannot beat army book b.

[Lord Manton]

The beautiful thing though, Erik, is that we already own the models. So if a game exists that we all like to play, we'll continue buying the models and GW wins. If they release something new and amazeballz-ingly awesome like the Imperial Knight that we all want to buy and use, the homebrew rules can accomodate this, albeit at a bit of a delay. And then, people will still be buying the models.
The other thing to remember, is that this doesn't necessarily have to be a rule system that is intimately tied to the fluff in the way that 40k official is. Or, we could even aim to be more faithful to the fluff (so Space Marines would only ally with Imperial armies, bc if I'm a psychoconditioned, genocidal, xenphobe who distrusts anyone who wasn't at least born human and still loves da Emprah, I'm gonna murder you on sight if you don't fit those criteria). Hell, we could be revolutionary and even make possessed not suck complete and utter donkey phallus.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

And consider that amount of diversity.

Counting all Marines as a single army to head off nitpicking, we have....13 Core Armies, with divergent books on a theme adding that up further.

Each one has over a dozen units to choose from (again, discounting the Harlequin style 'mostly allies' armies for this argument), and a lot of potential combinations from there.

Go on. Balance that perfectly. I think you'll find it's largely a fools errand, because whilst one could play test ad nauseum to perfect it, the price would be never actually releasing anything ever because of how long you would have to spend.

The level of balance we do have is nigh on miraculous. Tau fight very, very differently to Orks - yet Orks can still give Tau a good kicking.

Meta gaming is likewise a bit of a fools errand, as it will constantly shifty to clobber whatever the Meta is, as by definition the list that beats everyone becomes the list to beat. And round and round and round we go on the Meta Merry Go Round.

Yet, when you take a step back, and play the game the way the designers had in mind when they designed it - social gaming with friends - the game rocks. You build up rivalries. The experience deepens.

No point complaining it doesn't suit tournament hardcore play - wasn't the designer's aim. Might as well complain your 1984 Ford Capri didn't even qualify for that F1 race you entered.

[Denzark]

the game is balanced. any faction can beat any other. if you can't, then you suck, not the rules.

This is true.

The annoying part is when said whining bleeds into the local store, and a group that was otherwise enjoying 40K despite its flaws gets filled up by the negativity of a relative few and slowly drop out of it....

I think this is true on a planetary scale, with the North American Continent providing the negativity.

[CoffeeGrunt]

One thing I'll note that everyone sold WMH to me on the basis that it was perfectly balanced. They failed to mention that it lacks a few things that sell 40K to me:

- No DIY-Lords/Chapter Masters/Shas'O Commanders. Nope! You get these prescribed characters and nothing else.
- No in-box parts customisation. You get precisely the parts you need to build that kit...most of the time. I dunno if it's the UK supply, but every WMH player here has had a box or two with missing parts arrive. That aside, the models sorely lack any spare parts or customisation ability out of the box,
- The ability to make whatever I want. I mean, whatever I want. I have a Gue'vesa army that's almost entirely counts-as, I have a Chem Dogs Kill Team, and I model stuff so it looks like an alt version of something, but still has the same rules. You can't do that in WMH, because the differences between a Khador, Cygnar and Menoth Jack are so subtle, even changing the arms on a Carnivean makes it difficult to tell whether it's now a Scythean or just a counts-as,

If those are the concessions that need to be made to have a "balanced game," then I'm not for it. Besides, I haven't seen a properly balanced game played. Attack Wing got borked locally by the Borg, X-Wing is balanced by virtue of having a pretty small faction selection, and WMH has an, "if everyone's a superhero, no-one is," approach to game balance.

I dunno, I'm hobby-first, and it makes a lot of the game systems lauded in these sorts of arguments very difficult to enjoy.

[Mr Mystery]

This is true.



I think this is true on a planetary scale, with the North American Continent providing the negativity.

Yup. GW are a spectacularly British company.

40k's setting is rooted in post-Imperial and post-Industrial British decay. You only need to look at photos of former industrial sites to see the inspiration - especially those taken in the late 70's early 80's.

I mean, I type this in my office, which is in Canary Wharf. Canary Wharf - financial heart of not just Britain, but Europe - one of the prime financial centres of the globe. It's gleaming glass, spotless steels. It reeks of money and excess. Yet it's slap bang in the middle of some of the UK's most deprived areas, such as Tower Hamlets. That is very, very 40k.

[Lord Manton]

No point complaining it doesn't suit tournament hardcore play - wasn't the designer's aim. Might as well complain your 1984 Ford Capri didn't even qualify for that F1 race you entered.

This is exactly my original point, well said, Mr Mystery. Stop complaining and do something about it.

Obviously GW makes great miniatures. Obviously we want to play a game with said miniatures. Some people want to play in a way that isn't contemplated by the rules designer, nor is it facilitated by the system.

So stop the whinge and do something about it. If it is a well crafted and fun and exciting system that people can engage with, they will play it. If it's free, all the better as it encourages uptake with no buy-in, and it prevents certain evil corporations from deploying certain legal teams.

As a side note, I like that when the community is challenged to give a real solution, the response is one of "Hate the playa, don't hate the game!" Admittedly from the stalwart defenders of 40k.

I also would like to point out that I don't have a problem with 40k in its current iteration. I think it covers the fluff nicely, I think the plethora of factions and sub-factions is adding depth to the game to match the fluff and the miniatures are stunning. In terms of playing a game set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, 7th is the best at it so far (though I've only been playing since 3rd).

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

One thing I'll note that everyone sold WMH to me on the basis that it was perfectly balanced. They failed to mention that it lacks a few things that sell 40K to me:

- No DIY-Lords/Chapter Masters/Shas'O Commanders. Nope! You get these prescribed characters and nothing else.
- No in-box parts customisation. You get precisely the parts you need to build that kit...most of the time. I dunno if it's the UK supply, but every WMH player here has had a box or two with missing parts arrive. That aside, the models sorely lack any spare parts or customisation ability out of the box,
- The ability to make whatever I want. I mean, whatever I want. I have a Gue'vesa army that's almost entirely counts-as, I have a Chem Dogs Kill Team, and I model stuff so it looks like an alt version of something, but still has the same rules. You can't do that in WMH, because the differences between a Khador, Cygnar and Menoth Jack are so subtle, even changing the arms on a Carnivean makes it difficult to tell whether it's now a Scythean or just a counts-as,

If those are the concessions that need to be made to have a "balanced game," then I'm not for it. Besides, I haven't seen a properly balanced game played. Attack Wing got borked locally by the Borg, X-Wing is balanced by virtue of having a pretty small faction selection, and WMH has an, "if everyone's a superhero, no-one is," approach to game balance.

I dunno, I'm hobby-first, and it makes a lot of the game systems lauded in these sorts of arguments very difficult to enjoy.

I have nothing against WMH but this outlines why Ican't get into it well - I need to be able to add some personalisation to my army, paint it how I want at the least, convert models I don't like the look of so I do actually like them and give them their own backround. It's not jsut WMH though, a lot of wargames seem to forget the customisation element and infact it is something I am building into the very backround of my own wargame because I think most people want to be able to personalise things.

[Haighus]

I've never really entertained the idea of WMH, because the models really don't do it for me, but finding out that there is that little customisation too has really put a nail in the coffin there I think.

[Deadlift]

I've tried WMH, well to be honest I went out and bought 25pts worth of CoC and the rule book plus tokens and rulers.
Got home cracked open the battle box and was immediately disappointed. Sure I do think it's cheaper to get into the game. Anyone who says otherwise is talking out their bum. It is a cheaper gamer. But holy cow the models I've had are so badly cast. I'm not talking just flash, but miscasting where the two halves don't even line up. If your into the gaming side of the hobby, I guess you can live with that. I'm not I like to paint foremost and playing a game is just the icing. I'm putting the whole lot on eBay once it's painted and going to start again with 40k. For those that moaned about fine cast, wow try WMH. I paint for a side line and I now refuse to touch any privateer press models.