50pt pHaley List advice!

[Cjwee]

Hi all! I'm pretty new to warma hordes, but currently i'm working my way into making a full 50 pt list with pHaley. I was wondering if the good community here would be able to give me some critiques and advice on my current 35 point set up, and my proposed 50 pt set up. Currently I only own the core rulebook and cygnar book so I don't have too much knowledge about all the newer units that have come after those book! Thanks in advance for the critiques!

Without further ado:

pHaley @ 35 pts

Haley + battlegroup of : lancer, hunter

Arcane tempest gun mages with UA

min squad of Long gunners

Journeyman + battlegroup of defender

squire


for 50 points i was thinking of adding a 2nd defender under haley, with either gorman di wulfe + ayanna/holt or going full long gunner squad. What do you all think?

[Tokunator]

The thing is that Haley needs most of her Focus for herself. Typically, she will upkeep Arcane Shield on herself or the Lancer, then cast a Temporal Barrier and then either keep the other two for her powerfield or for Deadeye. So she does not really want to run Warjacks that need Focus. Thus she is best with just a Lancer or her character Lancer, Thorn, to have access to an arc node in case she needs to cast other spells or just to avoid being too close to the action. More than one jack on her is generally a waste unless you run the list with two Stormwalls on her, but that is a completely different list.

The Journeyman should also not have a Warjack, he is there to drop an Arcane Shield and then take potshots with his handcannon. Attaching a jack to him makes him too much of a target and a clever opponent will drop him to render his much tougher jack inert, so keep him without the jack, put an Arcane Shield on something turn 1, then hide him in the second wave.

In all, this list has too many warjacks because the thing is, Cygnar does not run 'jacks very well, whereas our troops and our mercenary allies are rather good.

I would detach the Hunter to the Gun Mages with UA, as the UA is a Jack Marshall (and if he dies, which he shouldn't if you hide him) that also gives the 'jack access to their special munitions and as a Jack Marshall gives a free boost to either to hit or wound. They rock with the Hunter as they give it the boost to hit, so increasing the odds of rolling a double, then giving it the Critical Brutal shot, so on a double, it rolls 3d6+6 against the target with halfed ARM thanks to Armour-Piercing. That package is tried and true.

The Long Gunners are meh, as they are too expensive for what they do, though they are alright with Haley. I would however not invest more points in them.

So if you take my advice and drop the Defender and shuffle the Hunter over to the Gun Mages, you have a decent core and still 24 points left to go to 50 points. You need at least one blocking unit, even with Haley's Temporal Barrier. Sooner or later, someone has to go for an objective or control zone and your gunners are all too fragile for that. Also, your army has very little to take on multiple high ARM targets. The options that you have are:

- the Stormblade package: Full unit of Stormblades with UA and a Stormclad marshalled to them. They give the Stormclad a Focus if it activates in 3" of one of them and another Focus for being Jack-Marshalled, so that gives you a heavy hitting unit and a heavy 'jack in one go. Arcane Shield makes them decent against most shooting and they hit hard under her feat.

- the Hammerdwarves: a full unit of Horgenhold Forge Guard with Captain Jonas Murdoch. Jonas is a Cygnar UA for mercenaries that makes them Cygnaran units until he dies (so put him in the back). The Dwarves are ARM16 or ARM18 if base-to-base (so most people run them in two little 'stars' of 3 and a central block of 4) which goes to 21 under Arcane Shield, which combined with Haley preventing charges with Temporal Barrier makes them really hard to kill for most infantry units. They are also MAT7 (9 under Temporal Barrier as it gives -2 DEF) with Steam Hammers that are POW11 and Weaponmaster, so they demolish most heavy 'jacks on the charge rolling 4d6 for damage and Haley actually makes them faster than the opponent (or rather the opponent slower). They tarpit very well or really bring the hurt. At 10 points, they are also quite affordable.

- The Murder Ponies: Tempest Blazers light cavalry. 10 points for 5 riders with Arcane Gun Mage stats and rune shots on their pistols, including Brutal for 3d6 (not Crit Brutal, but always Brutal) or Electro Leaps to kill two models with one shot. The feat lets them kill up to 20 guys with a 5-men unit.

If I were you, I'd choose the Blazers and Dwarves, then add Ayanna and Holt as they are easy to use as far as Mercenaries go. Adding more Warjacks in Cygnar is usually a recipe for disaster unless you run General Adept Nemo as your warcaster and even then it is not our best option or even in the top 10.

[Cjwee]

Wowza, thanks for that super detailed reply! I will definitely be looking more into mercenaries and the tempest blazers for sure now! I didn't know cygnar relied -that- much on its mercenary support actually so its pretty cool to hear this.

Why drop the defender as opposed to shuffling it over to the gun mages though, as opposed to giving the hunter to the gun mages?

[Tokunator]

Cgnar is often called MercNar for that reason. Cygnar's Warcasters and Gun Mages are tremendous, but the melee infantry is just not on the same level as some of the other armies' options, that's why people often turn to the Boomhowlers or Forge Guard as they have a good mix of resilience and power, whereas Cygnar's infantry never has that mix available to it.

The thing with the Defender is that it is just a terrible warjack for its points. You are paying for both the gun and the hammer, but each turn only get to use one of them, which is why it is too expensive for what it does. It also lacks the ARM to really stand up to a dedicated melee heavy. The cannon looks good at first glance, but most heavy warjacks or warbeasts will be ARM19+, so it will only do 3 damage on an unboosted or 7 on a boosted shot, then they will scrap you. Likewise, a lot of lists nowadays run multiple units of 8-wound ARM15+ units such as Trollkin Warders and Champions, Skorne Cataphracti, Exemplar Bastions and so forth. The Defender can kill one of those a turn if you boost both the to hit and damage rolls, but then you still invested two focus and 9 points to kill a 1.8-2 points model, which is just not worth it. In addition, as I outlined above, you really need some tarpit units to let your gun mages and Haley do their thing and the Defender is not tough enough to be that tarpit, so you need to invest 9 points in it AND invest points in a second tarpit unit, which puts a strain on your army as a whole.

If you really wish to take a heavy Warjack, the best option for Haley1 is the Stormclad with Stormblades because it can get Focus from the Stormblades, so does not require Haley's Focus, which she needs more herself.

[Cjwee]

Cool! Thanks for all the awesome advice, i've revamped my 35 pt list into

Phaley
- lancer
- squire
ATGM + UA
- marshalled hunter
Horgenhold Forge Guard - full unit
Journeyman
Tempest Blazers - min unit

Total: 39/40 pts

I'm having quite a bit of trouble expanding up to 50 points though. I've acquired the Black 13th, and i'm waiting on Aiyanna and Holt, Reinholdt, and Gorman. Other units I own are long gunners, said infamously inefficient defender, along with a min unit of trenchers and a grenadier. For 50 I wanted to make the Blazers a full unit, and add in either the black 13th, or A&H or both of them, but i'm not sure what to do with the rest of the points. What do you all think?

[Tokunator]

I would add both the Black 13th and Aiyana and Holt, with the Blazers, that would be 12 points more, so you'd be at 51 out of 55 points if I am not mistaken. You could consider upgrading the Lancer to Thorn, as he is a much better version of the same model with Reaction Drive and being able to channel when engaged, removing one of the easiest ways people can take an Arc Node out of the game. Another alternative would be Rhupert Carvolo to make your Forge Guard or Gun Mages Tough and Fearless.

The two final points should be invested in Captain Jonas Murdoch, as he is attached to the Dwarves to make them a friendly faction model. Haley's Temporal Barrier will slow down most people enough to prevent them from charging the Dwarves who should be ARM21 with Defensive Formation and Arcane Shield. This means that most infantry can't touch them as they lose the boosted damage from charging. So either they are slowed down to the extent where you get the charge yourself or just bounce off the Dwarves. In either way, if Murdoch is still alive, the Dwarves would also benefit from Haley's feat, either letting them charge for an 11+4d6 damage charge attack and a 11+3d6 follow-up each or 'just' two 11+3d6 attacks, all with Reach. This is not too shabby for a blocking unit.

[Cjwee]

Ah I see I see, that sounds good! Thanks for the good advice! Everyone kept recommending murdoch which left me really confused for a while, as I had misread Haley's feat. With the clause about ROF I thought her feat only referred to ranged attacks, so for sure Murdoch will be added in now! What do you think about throwing in gorman, instead of thorn?

[Tokunator]

Thorn might be not as essential with Haley1 as he is with Haley 2 as she relies a lot on Temporal Barrier as her main spell, which can't be arc noded anyways. So a Lancer might be enough to keep her going. Haley2 actually casts a lot more different spells such as Time Bomb, Temporal Manipulation, Deadeye and so on, so she needs to have her Arc Node available all the time.
So Gorman might be a good investment for Haley1.

[odinsgrandson]

Full Long Gunners are really worthwhile for Haley1. I'd definitely go for that if I were you.