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  1. #21

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    As a long time 40k and shorter time fantasy player and Brand new hordes player it is easy to tell the difference between the 2 modeling companies. for years we have heard GW say they are a models company that just happens to print the rules to a game....every warmahordes player tells me how balance and fun warmahordes is and that the game is better than GWs but the models are not as good, a gaming company that happens to make models...

    if only we could combine the best of both...a great game with great models...too much to ask for i know...

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havik110 View Post
    As a long time 40k and shorter time fantasy player and Brand new hordes player it is easy to tell the difference between the 2 modeling companies. for years we have heard GW say they are a models company that just happens to print the rules to a game....every warmahordes player tells me how balance and fun warmahordes is and that the game is better than GWs but the models are not as good, a gaming company that happens to make models...

    if only we could combine the best of both...a great game with great models...too much to ask for i know...
    Eh. Each game is trying a different approach. IMO it's apples and oranges to try comparing them, like trying to compare the NFL to the MLG.
    Read the above in a Tachikoma voice.

  3. #23
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    Huh.

    I've seen a lot of hatred on any and all PVC plastic minis, but I've honestly been so burned on polystyrene kits that I find having a totally different set of problems to be quite refreshing.

    Every medium for miniatures has it's upsides and downsides, but people can sometimes get really insistent on overlooking the problems with their favorites.

    - Metal
    + Good detail
    - Prices of metal vary with the market, and often require companies to compensate
    - Metal minis chip more easily than other media

    - Resin
    + if Hand Poured, can easily offer the best detail in miniatures
    - hand pouring is expensive
    - miscasts are more common than with other media, and without strong quality control, can get out of hand (hence the hate on Finecast).
    - minis are more fragile than other media.

    -Polystyrene and ABT plastic
    + creates sharp edges easily
    + very limited warping
    - difficult to create an organic look- it is best employed with armor and inorganic opbjects (compare GW's wolves to PP's)
    - loss of detail toward the mold lines is extreme and all sculpts must account for that (hence scout hair).
    - These flaws often make it easy to tell the difference between a metal/resin and polystyrene mini

    - PVC plastic -
    + gives you a similar mold line options as metal
    + can be cast in fewer parts without loss of detail on mold lines (take a look at the metal warpwolf)
    + finished mini can look the same as a metal/resin mini (although details are sharper on resin)
    - can warp more easily than other media- especially long thin areas (the parts can be bent back into shape fairly easily with boiling water).
    - While miscasts are fairly rare, mold lines can sometimes be a little over the top (this depends on the box, I'd say it's about one in five or six that has crazy mold lines).


    I spent a lot of time seeing the problems with GW's polystyrene, so I was super excited to see plastic minis that didn't have flatness near the mold lines (they could have texture to them). But by this point, I've come to accept that each medium has it's flaws.

    By the way- comparing the materials is far from the only way to compare the minis. As a sculptor, I feel I can appreciate that PP clearly makes their sculptors take longer to produce more tiny details on their minis than GW does.
    Last edited by odinsgrandson; 05-21-2015 at 09:25 AM.

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  4. #24

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    It's just a shame that when it comes to assembly, they just don't go together well. I don't mean in terms of the material, I mean in terms of gaps which make them seem amateurish. The Rhinodon stands out in my memory because of this. I saw a friend assemble a metal one only to realise it had a long gap down its back between the spines. When you're finishing the sculpt off with milliput because it's that shoddy it's not really acceptable, and when small upstarts are doing it better, it makes PP look pretty bad.
    Read the above in a Tachikoma voice.

  5. #25

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    Hmm... I'd have to see it to know how bad it was, but that sounds like a problem that sometimes happened with metal models, where a piece or two wouldn't cast quite right and it threw the whole thing off. I remember having to use green stuff to fill all the gaps on my dad's Steam Tank when I put it together because it had that issue. I've had it with a few GW monsters... recently assembled an Eltharion I had lying around from sometime long ago, poor thing needed quite a bit of TLC. And you often can't figure out where the problem with the fit is in order to try to fix it.

    I haven't done as many PP models as other people, and mostly limited to infantry and warjacks, but so far my only serious gripe (other than a lack of instructions in the starter box) is the way the jack arms connect sometimes, with the ball mount that you glue the arm to. I know it allows more range of posing, but every time I run into something like that, it's a pain to work with, as you have to hold the piece you're gluing in place as it dries, hoping you aren't shifting it around too much.

  6. #26
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    Yeah, it sounds like you're saying that needing to gap-fill a metal miniature in an organic shape is unacceptable- and that seems odd to me. I've just worked with loads of minis, and gap filling is needed on so many metal and resin kits that it just seems odd to complain about it. The problem gets worse as the molds get older, and when the minis are hollow (due to rising prices of tin) they also become a little more difficult to gap fill.

    But I don't see how that's different from any other manufacturer who makes large-ish minis from metal in organic shape.


    The only times that I think it is stupid to have to gap fill is when you're working with Polystyrene or ABT plastic- in those cases, gap filling comes about due to poor design (hard plastic doesn't slip).

    www.GardenNinja.com

  7. #27

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    The problem was the size of the gap, it was a gash down the length of the model's back. I dunno if it's because I'm a new modeller and thus never really worked with the shoddier old models back in the day, but I buy a lot from small companies, and their quality control is much better than PP's I've found. PP models have become a bit of a joke locally. The game's good, the minis...yeah.
    Read the above in a Tachikoma voice.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeGrunt View Post
    The problem was the size of the gap, it was a gash down the length of the model's back. I dunno if it's because I'm a new modeller and thus never really worked with the shoddier old models back in the day, but I buy a lot from small companies, and their quality control is much better than PP's I've found. PP models have become a bit of a joke locally. The game's good, the minis...yeah.
    I think it's one of the reasons people avoid metal these days, aside from cost to produce and weight. It holds detail well, but on larger models you can get some weird castings.

    You know the wedge on the front of a Steam Tank? Imagine that having a pretty noticeable gap. And the floor not lining up either.

    Do any smaller companies still make metal models?

  9. #29
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    Gaps are a material thing that happens with both metal and resin kits. Honestly, the worst gaps I've worked with were on Forge World pieces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Setzer View Post
    Do any smaller companies still make metal models?
    Yes, definitely. The cost for making plastic molds is still very expensive, so small companies choose between resin and metal- and a lot still choose metal. Off the top of my head, we have Coolminiornot (mostly for Dark Age), Reaper, Dark Sword, Iron Wind Metals, Bombshell, Impact! Miniatures, Red Box Games, Enigma and Valiant.

    A couple of these are moving their minis to other mediums (like Reaper's Bones, Impact's Trollforge). And most are moving their larger kits to resin or a resin and metal mix (the kind that Privateer Press use).

    I don't know if you've seen any of PP's newer mix media kits, but they come in very few pieces, and the largest ones are resin. This cuts way down on their potential for gaps, because they no longer have two massive parts that need to go together, and they are not hollow.


    One more note on companies besides GW. Most are not concerning themselves with appealing to completely new hobbyists (Reaper and Mantic seem to be the exceptions to this rule).

    But few care much about making their kits easy for people who are new to modelling (Wyrd, we're looking at you) so they require more expertise than the average GW kit. But they do concern themselves very strongly with the finished product (yeah Wyrd does well here too).

    Of course, if you're playing at a skirmish level, spending a little more time assembling a mini doesn't add up like it would for a Skaven army.

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  10. #30

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    I'm fine with Wyrd's models, because I don't have to finish the sculpting job for them before I can play them.
    Read the above in a Tachikoma voice.

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