"On a 6, I win.", or The problem with ranged D

[Erik Setzer]

nor GW ever playtested.

Given the size of their staff, the rate they're pushing stuff out the door, and their desire for ultra secrecy (which would kill off almost all, if not all, playtesting outside the design studio), I don't think they're able to really do much playtesting. Some of the rules questions that pop up when codices are released do make it seem like no one really played the army much, because they'd spot those issues and fix them in the book if they had.

[-Tom-]

With all of the Eldar rumors circling about, I have seen a lot of players trying to justify that the change to distortion weapons to Strength D is no big deal. I have seen players ask rhetorically things like: "what used to survive a unit of Wraithguards shooting, anyways?". The answer is simple: Imperial Knights. The new Eldar rules make Knights a complete liability, because a "6" on the damage table kills the Knight instantly with no recourse (as it bypasses its Ion Shield and any cover it may have). This means that a WraithKnight (with dual Wraithcannons) can avoid the Knight (with his superior mobility), searching for that magic 6. When it comes up, the Knight dies. With 2 shots a turn, that 6 is likely at some point in the game. Multiply this by mutiple WraithKnights, and a problem arises. Honestly, the Wraithguard are worse, as getting one of these 6's per squad's salvo will not be difficult. So, what's the problem with massed S: D? It makes large, single unit models a liability. Knights, most Monstrous Creatures (like Riptides as the 6 bypasses their shield as well), heavy tanks like Land Raiders and Monoliths (not that they were hyper-competitive anyways), and many more besides. Funnily enough, even WraithKnights (as the first player to roll the 6, kills the other one). That's not even mentioning how much more efficiently the 2-5 on the Destroyer table deals with Monstrous Creatures and medium vehicles than the old S10 rules.

Are there ways around this? Sure. Don't bring these large, expensive models. Cast Invisibility (that solves a lot of things, actually). Maybe something else? (I don't know, I can't think of anything) But, should you have to? Should a single Codex and a couple of models dictate so much? Maybe its always been like this, to some degree. It seems worse to me though.

Well, there was an article written a couple of weeks ago on the front page about how Dark Eldar were the 'spoiler' army. If they go with a poison build, they mess up x's chances in a tournament if they have a certain list, and meet the Dark Eldar player. If they have lots of lances, they mess up y player's chances instead if they have such and such a different build.

Seems to me that this can make Craftworld Eldar a bit of a spoiler army in the same way and changes the meta. If you have a nice 'take all comers' list, that contains lots of MCs or big units like knights then you've now got to worry about coming up against Eldar as your 'spoiler' army. Maybe that isn't a bad thing if it creates a situation where people are more tempted to take more variety/cheaper units, rather than putting all their eggs in one basket and building knight spam / wraith knight spam lists (thinking that Eldar WK's would also mess up other Eldar WK's if they faced each other) - I'm talking 'competitive' play scenarios here, rather than friendly games, as I figure that in a friendly game you can make agreements between players before you even start if you feel that you need to mitigate each others list choices.

I have a friend who plays Orks, very well, and his view is that "boyz win games". Put mobs of boyz in trukks, give them a nob with a power claw, maybe have a battlewagon with a kustom forcefield or two, but generally keep it simple. With that sort of list, the improved wraith knight makes very little difference I think, because the heavy wraith cannons now being D weapons aren't going to make much difference to those boyz. From past experience, he's been fairly happy to just ignore the WK because it's just not putting out enough shots per turn to worry about. The new WK is going to cost more points that would then in turn leave fewer points to take other things... would the improvements to the new version be worth the extra points cost versus that kind of horde list?

Perhaps large, single unit models SHOULD be a liability. We're surely all familiar with the phrase about 'putting all your eggs in one basket' and why that is a bad thing?

[Charon]

The new WK is going to cost more points that would then in turn leave fewer points to take other things... would the improvements to the new version be worth the extra points cost versus that kind of horde list?

The stomp placing blasts all over his tightly packed units.

[-Tom-]

The stomp placing blasts all over his tightly packed units.

On a single model basis, perhaps, but it's not as straightforward as that though is it? Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but assuming going for a bound force, as I currently understand it there would be the choice of taking either the BRB style standard force org, or the Eldar codex's force org thing with the guardian hosts? If the former, then you're limited to one WK as it is a Lord of War, if the latter, then you have a tax of other units, like the vyper, included in the host?

As such does a small increase in points on one unit have a bigger effect in the long run on points boundaries - as in, let's say for example that you're playing a 1000pt game. A fancy unit has increased in points from 250pts to 260pts. Whereas you used to be able to have 500pts of such and such, plus 2 of that fancy unit, you now can't. Not without dropping something else, and dropping something else might impact the effectiveness of that 500pts thing.

So, yes, I agree with your point on the stomp attack, on a single model basis. But, on a whole list basis, does the increase in points mean that as the Eldar player you're also putting all your eggs in one basket if you go for a Wraithknight spam force? Are you losing effectiveness of other parts of your force by putting all your eggs in that basket? Does going WK spam make you weak against other types of list? (Either because you can't effectively damage them, or because you're susceptible to damage from them? - i.e. previous codex WKs and Wraithlords were quite easily taken down by massed shuriken fire. With guardians or Dire Avengers, at shooting range, the WK probably had higher points value targets to be shooting at, but a volley of shuriken fire would most likely roll a couple of 6s to wound, and start wracking up wounds on the WK / Wraithlord.

[Charon]

you have a tax of other units, like the vyper, included in the host

The tax is

1 Farseer
1 Warlock conclave
3+ Windriders
1+ Vyper

That opens up to 12 WKnights.
The WK WAS already in a very good spot and got buffed for mere 50 points.
So in the case above a 1750 army could field around 4 Knights.

The problem here is that you already think about how to beat Eldar with Eldar. That is not a big problem as Wraithguard can easily deal with the Knight, having all D weapons and ignore his T and his FNP.
There are other races too. Remember when the Dark Eldar codex hit and they were nerfed across the board and people justified it with "the will bring them all down to this powerlevel and steamline the codices"? There is nothing in the entire DE codex that can remotely compete with any Eldar unit.
I started Eldar in 2nd edition and DE in 3rd. And even as a competitive Eldar player I was like "Ok... this can only be a joke...".

The good thing is, you can really pick what you want. every unit is good and even if it is not, it is still strictly better than another armies equivalent.

And If you only take 2 Wraitknights, you can add in 3 Flyers which are lvl 2 psykers and are armed with 2 D-weapons.

[-Tom-]

The tax is

1 Farseer
1 Warlock conclave
3+ Windriders
1+ Vyper

That opens up to 12 WKnights.
The WK WAS already in a very good spot and got buffed for mere 50 points.
So in the case above a 1750 army could field around 4 Knights.

The problem here is that you already think about how to beat Eldar with Eldar. That is not a big problem as Wraithguard can easily deal with the Knight, having all D weapons and ignore his T and his FNP.
There are other races too. Remember when the Dark Eldar codex hit and they were nerfed across the board and people justified it with "the will bring them all down to this powerlevel and steamline the codices"? There is nothing in the entire DE codex that can remotely compete with any Eldar unit.
I started Eldar in 2nd edition and DE in 3rd. And even as a competitive Eldar player I was like "Ok... this can only be a joke...".

The good thing is, you can really pick what you want. every unit is good and even if it is not, it is still strictly better than another armies equivalent.

And If you only take 2 Wraitknights, you can add in 3 Flyers which are lvl 2 psykers and are armed with 2 D-weapons.

So, yeah, maybe the new Eldar codex is hideously overpowered. Maybe it's just so much better than any other codex that everyone might as well just box up their other armies and put them away in the loft. Maybe GW have looked at their falling profits and decided that it's time to close up shop, but to go out with one final hilarious codex that will be so ludicrously unbalanced that everyone will rage quit anyway.

Or, maybe it isn't. Maybe when people have played a few games it won't be the end of the world that so many posts are forecasting. Maybe it's just a case of working out weaknesses and planning new lists.

[DrBored]

Going to wait for the full codex to release before I freak out and refuse to ever play an Eldar player ever again like so many people are already.

I have a feeling that the only things we've seen so far are all the things that got buffed, but not so much on what got more expensive, or what restrictions there might be to different things. If the Wraithknight got moved to Lord of War, it doesn't make sense that you could take 1-12 of them. Most likely, there's a paragraph that explains that if you want 1-12 of those Wraith construct detachments, that you can only take one Wraithknight and the others can be Wraithlords or whatever else is in that slot.

Yes, it's frustrating to see an army get this many buffs across the table, but until we get the full story and the full Codex in our hands, it's pointless to fret about it.

I mean, heck, Eldar are already winning tournaments, so that's nothing new. If they continue to win tournaments, it means other players will either need to find ways to defeat them, or just join them and try to win other tournaments.

Either way, GW is happy since it sells models.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. They're still just Eldar. And that's means anything trying to hold an objective is stupidly easy to beat up. Anything which can ignore cover tends to do a real number on Eldar.

They hit hard, but aren't noted for resilience. Even the seemingly feared Wraithknight can be taken down in a single turn of concentrated fire. A favourite unit already seen aplenty, Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield can take it in combat. 3+ Invulnerable save, and the Wraithknight doesn't have a great many attacks.

Dark Eldar? I assume you packed your Dark Lances yeah? They ought to pop a few wholes in the big bugger.

There's always a way. Might just take you a few games to get your eye for it.

[daboarder]

The feared wraithknight was and still is literally one of the toughest units in the game mystery. Stop hoop jumping.

Its largely immune to poison, snipers, ID, Dweapons etc... completely immune to anything s4 or less so unless you are eldar with masses and masses of S6 or psuedo rending. Then torrenting it is not a viable option.

All for the price of a bloodthrister

[40kGamer]

Yup. They're still just Eldar. And that's means anything trying to hold an objective is stupidly easy to beat up. Anything which can ignore cover tends to do a real number on Eldar.

They hit hard, but aren't noted for resilience. Even the seemingly feared Wraithknight can be taken down in a single turn of concentrated fire. A favourite unit already seen aplenty, Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield can take it in combat. 3+ Invulnerable save, and the Wraithknight doesn't have a great many attacks.

Dark Eldar? I assume you packed your Dark Lances yeah? They ought to pop a few wholes in the big bugger.

There's always a way. Might just take you a few games to get your eye for it.

IMO Eldar offer a darn good balance between tough and hard hitting. You have an ace army by mixing Wraith units, Serpents (still hard to kill), Jetbikes and Aspects.