"On a 6, I win.", or The problem with ranged D

[Lexington]

Again, note that I am talking about this book purely from the perspective of competitive play, where it basically destroys the current meta. Regular games will deal with it as they have any other "over-powered" tournament army; that fact becomes invalid in pick-up games based on respective player skill, army list construction and a friendlier environment.

Probably the best sum-up I've seen of this Problem Codex.

It also makes me think that taking up competitive drinking might not be a bad call, comparatively.

[Talys]

The two new knights may have ranged D as well -- or, following Epic, perhaps a quake cannon. May shift the meta too.

[Talys]

Why do I keep seeing the argument that "the Wraithknight is not that tough because "x" unit can destroy it in melee"?
It moves 12" and has Battle Focus in the Wraithost formation. Good luck catching it with Assault Terminators.

While this is true, Wraith Host only allows 1 Wraithknight, and it eats up a ton of points.

Wraithlord is 120 -- closer to 150 once you equip him.
Wraithknight is 295 -- 330 with shoulder weapons.
3x Wraithguard are 160 each -- 480 total.

That's 960 points, and you need to give at the Wraithguard transports, or else they're never going to get off a shot -- so a minimum of 330 points there. You're already at 1290 points; in an 1850 game, that only leaves you with 560, and you still need to take a Core, not to mention likely upgrades on the transport.

Which isn't to say that it's a bad formation (and Battle Focus certainly rocks), but in my opinion, just like Angel's Fury in 1850 games, it's not practical, because it leaves you with too few models to work with after you've figured out your core. Plus, this gets you ONE Wraithknight with Battle Focus.

[gredert]

you forgot 70 for the seer. NO upgrades this formation is 965, so you cant even do 2 of them if unbound allows you to take 2 formations as an option (not sure as I have literally never done more than glance at the unbound rules when the book first came out so yeah that may not even work). I am working on a legal list getting the most D as possible right now and its not by using this I don't think, I will post my best list, plus cost in $ to field it to see if its something to even worry about.

[gredert]

ok its not a guardian battlehost plus wraith host as that doesn't allow you to add a second knight from LOW slot without being 45 points over an 1850 list and there is no way to find those points as I only used 1 viper and walker, and the only upgrade I took was going to D-cannons. So to make the second knight work you drop the D-cannon upgrades meaning you have like 30ish points for shoulder weapons on those 2 knights. 4 ranged D that are actually going to get shots off isn't that scary as those 15 guard still need to get within 12 although with the guaranteed run of 6 from the big detachment rule does help I will admit, so if you don't have lots of shooting I guess this is an issue, but you have time to remove some of this, and I know my guard can do it. Also this list, in Cdn, will cost $712. So call it 550-600 in the US, and 350-400ish in the UK. All the scary lists I come up with are way more than the average person is going to put into 1 army that only makes 1 list. The people who will are what I like to refer to as dicks, the true D of 40k. But I am going to go back to work and for fun make the most cost effective D-mongering list I can....

[Charon]

Actually you just need a Windrider host to get access to up to 12 WKnights. A 1850 Army consisting of a Windrider Host and 5 WKnights is perfectly possible (leaves 17 points for upgrades).
Will probably lose against anything with Grav, but hey...
On a more serious note you will probably see some DE allies for taxi service (Dragons in Venoms for DS BS5 tank hunting or Wraithblades/guard in Raiders) and the WWP as pinpoint accurate deepstrike via WWP is amazing for Scytheguard.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

"Up to 12 Wraithknights" - well, the full twelve sets you back at least about 3500 points, so you're not especially likely to see that in action.

[Venomlust]

Even 2 is pretty bad. I think 3 could probably be fit into a list quite easily.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Certainly! Hell, even one was pretty terrifying in the old book.

[Da Gargoyle]

For Dark Link - sorry I took a while to get back to this. Re your comments :-

Do you think tournament players don't already bring the best lists they can? It's not like we've just been messing around and now that Eldar are out, we're all "oh, crap, we should bring our good stuff now".

Obviously I don't think for a minute that anyone was not taking their best list. But I've seen a lot of posts saying were doomed because of the D weapons. Not a lot of people are putting forward counters to the new Dar threat. And there are those fiendish geniuses (?) out there that could win with a Grot army.

Do you mean Broadsides or Crisis Suits?

Actually I was thinking of Broadsides as I thought they were Jet Pack units, my mistake. However, the Crisis Suites are Jet Pack infantry and can move at the same rate as the bikes, more importantly they can deep strike, (As opposed to turbo). Marker lights missile pods and fusion guns still apply. (I might be having a chat with the bloke that fielded the XV88's though. He was using them as Jet Infantry)

Devestators are pretty crappy.

Why? Two units with Las Cannon Missile launcher combo's will cause damage to a WK as he has to rely on a 5++ inv' to save. Way back in the day I used to field Devastators with an additional marine for each heavy, the extra provided defence against assaulting teams and ablative armour to keap the heavies operating. As for people not using them, that is their choice but if there is now a use for them why wouldn't you? They also have range for those pesky jet bikes. Also, if you field multiple threats to a WK or WG and your opponent attacks those threats first then the WK & WG are not necessarily achieving their primary role.

From my point of view, the shocks of the new codices have always forced people to rethink their force lists. I'm on my third Dar Dex and I'm changing my list. But I'm not blowing another $250 Oz for 2 more WK just so I can field 3. One with a couple of Wraith Lords and a Wraith Seer I just put together, finally, could make a dodgy list. I also think that you wont see to many high volume bikes with SL/SC fit outs. They wont deal with armour or the big constructs other armies field, don't deal well with armour/cover saves.

I was already fielding Jetlocks to deal with armour, and jet bikes to deal with infantry, with at least one cannon per unit. Before this codex I was working on a bike list because of its benefits v cost. I'm irritated that the singing spears lost their AP1 though. Now I have to rely on killing hull points.