Got the Eldar Codex, first impressions

[Erik Setzer]

LOL Recasters are running pre-sale specials on jetbikes.

Buy them in bulk and you get a better price.

Pretty smart.

Next GT you go to, scratch some paint off of those jetbikes to make sure they're not recasts!!! :P

And if they aren't recasts, you've damaged someone's model for... what?

[Defenestratus]

And if they aren't recasts, you've damaged someone's model for... what?

It was tongue in cheek Erik, thus the colonpee :P

Lighten up Francis!!!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

You know, I realize the dex is really good, but I keep going back to how powerful drop pod lists are right now. And the fact that blood Angels have such a good counter to everything Eldar. I'm not that worried. Double hand flamer sergeants with heavy flamer and regular flamer or ASM double hand flamer with double regular flamer say "hi..."

And honestly sternguard are still one of the best answers to anything. Their versatility is so amazing, I mean dragonfire bolts just mow down guardians, and combi-flamers/grav/melta can take out all the scary-scary. Plus they have centurion grav-gun allies. It really depends on the TOs missions though.

It'll be really interesting to see how the tournament scene plays out. For us narrative boys and girls though, I really don't think we look at this as doom and gloom. /shrugs/

[Erik Setzer]

It was tongue in cheek Erik, thus the colonpee :P

Lighten up Francis!!!

Some people might take it serious... I don't care if someone's using recasts. I don't want to use them because too often there's issues with them. But if other people buy them and then GW loses out on sales because people have a problem with GW's prices, well, hey, maybe GW learns. Probably not, though, they'll just jack up the prices to cover the difference (clearly not working, but eh, I'm kind of apathetic about it at this moment).

On a semi-related note, I would have thought GW making a Warlock and Farseer on jetbike would have meant CH couldn't sell those, but I guess since they got there first they can keep selling them. Won't be useful for long, since GW *did* change over their basic Jetbike design. And most people would just rather buy the GW model (less issues with "Is this tourney-legal?").

[DarkLink]

O RLY? I assume you would never ever make totally baseless accusations and have math to back this statement up? Please, share it with us.

If you can think of one, feel free to share. I guess you could argue that a command squad on bikes with grav guns is a respectable comparison due to the relatively large number of AP2 shots, but they can't sit back and jump in and out of terrain to stay safe, and they're a fair bit more expensive per model.

I mean, compare to most power armor units. They're mostly all variations on a bunch of bolters with a couple melta/plasma/grav weapons a unit, depending on the codex, averaging from about 20ppm for cheaper units like Tactical Marines to 25+ for fully equipped command squads/veterans. Since you're limited to bolters and four heavy/special weapons max, it's hard to argue that any of these 'standard' units can get even remotely close to the level of firepower jetbikes have. What's better, a bolter or a scatter laser? A meltagun, or 40 Str 6 shots? Sure, Jetbikes can't hurt AV13, but who needs them to do that when you have so much ranged Str D? The argument of 'but it can't hurt a Land Raider' is inane.

Then you start to get into some more exotic units. Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters have a lot of shots, but they cost as much per model as the jetbikes, are completely static if you want to use your Salvo weapons, and you get Str 4 shooting instead of Str 6. Same applies to the DA Salvo banner. Grey Knights get Storm Bolters and psycannons, but cost significantly more per model and don't get nearly as many high strength shots. Thousand Sons get AP3, but if you do the math Jetbikes kill more MEQ than they do, and TkSons only get worse shooting at anything other than 3+ armor out in the open.

Wolf Guard can spam combi-weapons like crazy, so you can get a bunch of plasma shots, for one round of shooting. That is pretty nasty, and I think that's probably about the closest and cheapest you can get in terms of sheer firepower. They're more expensive than jetbikes, though, and only get one single round of nasty shooting. And if their target is in cover, the Jetbikes will actually do more wounds than they will if it's anything other than 2+ armor.

But, at this point I'm running out of ideas for ways to maximize firepower out of a power armor unit, so I obviously haven't put enough thought into this for anything I've said to be a valid argument. I'm sure you'll find an obvious example I'm missing that I've never seen any of the top tournament players run at major events. They must be too busy playing Centstars with Fire Raptors and Sicarans and allies to realize just how much firepower a humble Tactical squad brings to bear .

[daboarder]

I for one would like to add a resounding

"OH SNAP!"

to Darklinks post

[ShadowcatX]

If you can think of one, feel free to share. I guess you could argue that a command squad on bikes with grav guns is a respectable comparison due to the relatively large number of AP2 shots, but they can't sit back and jump in and out of terrain to stay safe, and they're a fair bit more expensive per model.

I mean, compare to most power armor units. They're mostly all variations on a bunch of bolters with a couple melta/plasma/grav weapons a unit, depending on the codex, averaging from about 20ppm for cheaper units like Tactical Marines to 25+ for fully equipped command squads/veterans. Since you're limited to bolters and four heavy/special weapons max, it's hard to argue that any of these 'standard' units can get even remotely close to the level of firepower jetbikes have. What's better, a bolter or a scatter laser? A meltagun, or 40 Str 6 shots? Sure, Jetbikes can't hurt AV13, but who needs them to do that when you have so much ranged Str D? The argument of 'but it can't hurt a Land Raider' is inane.

Then you start to get into some more exotic units. Noise Marines with Sonic Blasters have a lot of shots, but they cost as much per model as the jetbikes, are completely static if you want to use your Salvo weapons, and you get Str 4 shooting instead of Str 6. Same applies to the DA Salvo banner. Grey Knights get Storm Bolters and psycannons, but cost significantly more per model and don't get nearly as many high strength shots. Thousand Sons get AP3, but if you do the math Jetbikes kill more MEQ than they do, and TkSons only get worse shooting at anything other than 3+ armor out in the open.

Wolf Guard can spam combi-weapons like crazy, so you can get a bunch of plasma shots, for one round of shooting. That is pretty nasty, and I think that's probably about the closest and cheapest you can get in terms of sheer firepower. They're more expensive than jetbikes, though, and only get one single round of nasty shooting. And if their target is in cover, the Jetbikes will actually do more wounds than they will if it's anything other than 2+ armor.

But, at this point I'm running out of ideas for ways to maximize firepower out of a power armor unit, so I obviously haven't put enough thought into this for anything I've said to be a valid argument. I'm sure you'll find an obvious example I'm missing that I've never seen any of the top tournament players run at major events. They must be too busy playing Centstars with Fire Raptors and Sicarans and allies to realize just how much firepower a humble Tactical squad brings to bear .

Two grav bikes with a sergeant and a combi-grav. Maybe try tossing on an attack bike with a multi-melta. If you could run the math against marines, termies, riptides, and wraith knights and report which unit has more fire power I'd love to hear it.

And just as an aside, I love how when you mention the most powerful units you can think of, 2/3 of them are forgeworld, and specifically Horus Herasy. Good thing FW is balanced, and totally not O.P.

[daboarder]

maybe people would listen to you shadow if you stopped completely ignoring key aspects of the game, like movement, range and others in your attempts to talk down a unit that has LONG been considered a staple of eldar and never considered a week unit getting one fo the biggest buffs in the games history

[DarkLink]

His condescending attitude is a real plus, too.


You never see grav bikers run like that, as they need 5 models to be troops. If you want pure grav, you need a command squad, which I mention. The issue with grav weapons is their lack of flexibility. They're really good at killing Riptides and Terminators, and worthless against Imperial Knights. Scatter laser jetbikes have their own gaps, but those are covered by the rest of the Eldar army far better than SMs tend to cover their weaknesses. Who cares about killing heavy armor when you can spam Str D?

As to forgeworld, those two units are very good, but far from OP. They're mainly common because the SM codex has pretty bad internal balance, and they cover major gaps in the SM arsenal. Ignores Jink is half the reason to run a Sicaran, and without Wave Serpent spam you will see a lot fewer of them. Considering how small the impact forgeworld has had on the west coast meta, the idea that it's any more OP than anything in standard 40k is laughable.

[davel]

I have spotted some oddities with some of the in dependant characters.

Barbarity does not have intercept
Karandras does not have stalker
Maughan ra does not get the reaper launcher

The autarch has gone from his original incarnation of uber aspect warrior leader to (for certain aspects) a complete numpty who also turned up. For banshee he looses them acrobatic (wait for me). Scorpions the extra camo (could you not work a little more green into your uniform). Avengers there defend over watch ability (.....no i can't see the logic behind that one). It is also if a correctly equips it is unclear if he can use or looses warp spiders their flicker jump.
Other aspects don't loose their abilities.

Dave l

- - - Updated - - -

I meant reaper range finder

I have spotted some oddities with some of the in dependant characters.

Barbarity does not have intercept
Karandras does not have stalker
Maughan ra does not get the reaper launcher

The autarch has gone from his original incarnation of uber aspect warrior leader to (for certain aspects) a complete numpty who also turned up. For banshee he looses them acrobatic (wait for me). Scorpions the extra camo (could you not work a little more green into your uniform). Avengers there defend over watch ability (.....no i can't see the logic behind that one). It is also if a correctly equips it is unclear if he can use or looses warp spiders their flicker jump.
Other aspects don't loose their abilities.

Dave l