Got the Eldar Codex, first impressions

[Defenestratus]

For starters if we do a 1:1 compare outside of codex synergies I would bet
11 Guardians + Warlock with a Singing Spear and a Scatter Laser which clocks in at 154 are better than
10 Tactical Marines with a flamer and a Heavy Bolter that clocks in at 155.
(Arbitrarily chose the heavy weapons with a comparable ROF and range.)

With deployment and cover (Which ever board has in spades if it is set up properly) the Guardians have the advantage of dancing in and out of the Hvy Bolter for the marines with the Scatter Laser forcing the marines to be be aggressive and close with them. The Warlock is pretty reliable at buffing the Guardians cover save and the Marines are not likely to close the distance to punish them with their bolters/flamer before they give in to attrition.

Two can play that game.

120 pts, 5 marines w/flamer, combi flamer and a drop pod.

Lotsa dead guardians....

Which is what always seems to happen to me.

[40kGamer]

Two can play that game.

120 pts, 5 marines w/flamer, combi flamer and a drop pod.

Lotsa dead guardians....

Which is what always seems to happen to me.

You ain't wrong! ...Unless they're chilling in a pimped out Serpent.

[ShadowcatX]

If someone is targeting my Guardians either:
A) They are extremely bad at target priority or
B) The rest of my army is already dead and I've probably lost the game

Or else your guardians have taken an objective and they are trying to push you off it.

Now tell me, if guardians are the bomb diggity, why would it be a mistake to target them early? They are really good and threatening, right?

And your theoretical example is so horrible it is laughable, and yet you are betting on the wrong horse. Marines hang out in the 23 - 24 inch range, and the guardians eat 11 shots a turn while putting out 4. If the guardians run close enough to use their shuriken cats they'll get charged. And that's with the deck purposefully stacked against the Marines by giving them the worst heavy weapon option and special weapon option in the codex.

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You ain't wrong! ...Unless they're chilling in a pimped out Serpent.

Guardians can't afford a serpent at 120 points. Not even close.

[Defenestratus]

You ain't wrong! ...Unless they're chilling in a pimped out Serpent.

Would rather pay the points for a serpent to a squad that's actually more than the transport itself.

[40kGamer]

Now tell me, if guardians are the bomb diggity, why would it be a mistake to target them early? They are really good and threatening, right?

Being useful and good for their points doesn't mean that they are the scariest thing on the table. GW totally screwing up the points on the ranged S D Wraith units and the Jetbikes guaranteed that.

And your theoretical example is so horrible it is laughable, and yet you are betting on the wrong horse. Marines hang out in the 23 - 24 inch range, and the guardians eat 11 shots a turn while putting out 4. If the guardians run close enough to use their shuriken cats they'll get charged. And that's with the deck purposefully stacked against the Marines by giving them the worst heavy weapon option and special weapon option in the codex.

Why would the Guardians bother setting up or closing to anything closer than the 36" range of the Scatter? They are made to dance in and out of range and limit the enemies ability to respond. And what would you give the marines? A grav gun or plasma gun? They're more expensive (meaning more Guardians) and the extra shots out of range don't exactly help. A Missile Launcher would at least let the marines drop a small blast on the Guardians from far away but it isn't going to kill them faster than the Scatter kills marines.

Guardians can't afford a serpent at 120 points. Not even close.

Why not? AT 1850 - 2000 Guardians in a Serpent are easy to fit in. Especially with the undercosted Wraiths and Bikes.

[Mr Mystery]

I think we've found someone complaining for the sake of complaining.

Properly equipped, Guardians can knack anything. Costs some points (oh noes!) but 20 Grauniads with a pair of Bright Lances are a prickly prospect, and present an overall flexibility of purpose otherwise lacking in Craftworld Eldar, where specialisation is very much the core of the army and indeed the background thereof.

[ShadowcatX]

Why would the Guardians bother setting up or closing to anything closer than the 36" range of the Scatter? They are made to dance in and out of range and limit the enemies ability to respond. And what would you give the marines? A grav gun or plasma gun? They're more expensive (meaning more Guardians) and the extra shots out of range don't exactly help. A Missile Launcher would at least let the marines drop a small blast on the Guardians from far away but it isn't going to kill them faster than the Scatter kills marines.

Me thinks you vastly overrate the scatter laser vs. marines. 4 shots, 2/3rds hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3rd pass armor save, 1/6 pass FNP. That's just under 2/3rds of a marine a turn.

Why not? AT 1850 - 2000 Guardians in a Serpent are easy to fit in. Especially with the undercosted Wraiths and Bikes.

Because you arbitrarily picked 150 points for the example and you can't get a unit of guardians with a wave serpent for less than 200. And it sounds like you're salty about wraiths and bikes and so you're projecting, forget the wraiths and bikes, this discussion is about rather or not guardian defenders are good.

On a side note, I do believe storm guardians are playable, except by comparison to other units, specifically in their formation, with a warlock with spear, and being delivered in a Raider. 3 solid anti-tank shots, and they have the potential to do some damage in melee, especially with a little luck on the psychic powers.

[40kGamer]

Would rather pay the points for a serpent to a squad that's actually more than the transport itself.

Serpents definitely add a lot to Dragons and WG since they offer amazing protection while you cruise across the table to lay waste to things... And if I want to go all Conan with list optimization I would use MSU bikes as troops unless trying to unlock a special rule. However using the obviously miscosted troop option doesn't reflect poorly on the foot Guardians... it's just a sign that GW missed the mark on the relative internal points values... again.

[ShadowcatX]

I think we've found someone complaining for the sake of complaining.

Properly equipped, Guardians can knack anything. Costs some points (oh noes!) but 20 Grauniads with a pair of Bright Lances are a prickly prospect, and present an overall flexibility of purpose otherwise lacking in Craftworld Eldar, where specialisation is very much the core of the army and indeed the background thereof.

I'm not complaining, I'm simply keeping people in line. Tell me, if you were putting together a new army and guardian defenders were a universal troops choice, which army would you go "Oh, i'll field those, I don't want my other troops choices." Necrons? Marines? Tyranids? Sisters?

[Mr Mystery]

When in the name of Satan's twelve foot of throbbing red gristle do you get that all marines have FnP?

And when answering, do remember that 'everyone knows' is not a defence, but admission you basically have nowt to back up your assertion.

Bad enough you depend entirely upon statistical probability when in the 'career' of any gamer they're unlikely to chuck a statistically significant number of dice, but you do so in a game with a great number of possible variables that sheer statistical probability becomes frankly mind boggling for the lay person.

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Defenders aren't a universal troops choice. Your point is entirely moot.

You may as well ask what I would do in the same case if I could shoot Unicorns out my nipsy.