Got the Eldar Codex, first impressions

[40kGamer]

Me thinks you vastly overrate the scatter laser vs. marines. 4 shots, 2/3rds hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3rd pass armor save, 1/6 pass FNP. That's just under 2/3rds of a marine a turn.

Makes sense the marines would want the Iron Hands tactic to unlock the FNP. But 2/3 of a marine beats 0 Guardians. (Unless it's the missle launcher option which would hit something although it would still mathhammer out to less than 2/3 per turn.

Because you arbitrarily picked 150 points for the example and you can't get a unit of guardians with a wave serpent for less than 200.

Yes I did. I picked the most common troop choice in the game with no vehicles in the mix to keep it simple as we are comparing single units in a vacuum. If we do 10 guardians with a platform in a Serpent vs 10 marines in a Pod with upgrades to a comparable PV I'd still bet on the Defenders. The Marines have almost 0 chance of tanking the Serpent when they drop and in a game of maneuver the Eldar almost never lose.

And it sounds like you're salty about wraiths and bikes and so you're projecting, forget the wraiths and bikes, this discussion is about rather or not guardian defenders are good.

Not salty at all. I've played Eldar since RT so GW blowing PV's isn't a shock... they're almost guaranteed to do it every codex on something. Just stating that once we come out of the vacuum of comparing single units abilities the sky is the limit. Guardian defenders have some very natural synergies with the Warhost as a whole. They're not WAAC points optimized like the bikes and Wraiths but they work just fine.

[deinol]

Wait, why does everyone think bikes are under costed? Nobody complained about the price before, and it hasn't actually changed, right? As interesting as scatter lasers are, I'm sticking with shuriken cannons. Love that blade storm against marines.

[40kGamer]

Wait, why does everyone think bikes are under costed? Nobody complained about the price before, and it hasn't actually changed, right? As interesting as scatter lasers are, I'm sticking with shuriken cannons. Love that blade storm against marines.

They've been an amazing value since the last dex but the Serpent was so crazy good that it took the full share of Nerdrage.

I don't think Scatterbikes are the bees knees either... I may use a few but unless I see a big tabletop difference I'll be sticking with the trusty Cannon too.

[ShadowcatX]

When in the name of Satan's twelve foot of throbbing red gristle do you get that all marines have FnP?

So you think a fair example of how good guardians are requires the marines not be allowed to use their special rules?

And when answering, do remember that 'everyone knows' is not a defence, but admission you basically have nowt to back up your assertion.

Please refrain from attacking arguments you think I might hypothetically make and actually let me speak for myself. Just because you're anonymous and online doesn't mean you shouldn't show a modicum of respect.

Bad enough you depend entirely upon statistical probability when in the 'career' of any gamer they're unlikely to chuck a statistically significant number of dice, but you do so in a game with a great number of possible variables that sheer statistical probability becomes frankly mind boggling for the lay person.

Coming from the guy who put forth "if no one shoots them they can hold an objective good" and "they did really good in my annecdotal story so obviously they are good" I will take statistical probability every time.

Defenders aren't a universal troops choice. Your point is entirely moot.

So hypothetical situations are acceptable when they are weighted in your favor butwhen it is turned around hypotheticals don't matter and my point is moot? That is blatant hypocrisy.

You may as well ask what I would do in the same case if I could shoot Unicorns out my nipsy.

I'll just leave this little gem here.

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Makes sense the marines would want the Iron Hands tactic to unlock the FNP. But 2/3 of a marine beats 0 Guardians. (Unless it's the missle launcher option which would hit something although it would still mathhammer out to less than 2/3 per turn.

So your whole argument is if guardians are better than marines in a purely hypothetical world where the marines can't shoot back. Sadly, even in that world, at the end of the game the marines still contest the objective, and have had 7 turns of shooting something else.

Yes I did. I picked the most common troop choice in the game with no vehicles in the mix to keep it simple as we are comparing single units in a vacuum. If we do 10 guardians with a platform in a Serpent vs 10 marines in a Pod with upgrades to a comparable PV I'd still bet on the Defenders. The Marines have almost 0 chance of tanking the Serpent when they drop and in a game of maneuver the Eldar almost never lose.

This proves absolutely nothing about guardians. You understand that, right?

[40kGamer]

So your whole argument is if guardians are better than marines in a purely hypothetical world where the marines can't shoot back. Sadly, even in that world, at the end of the game the marines still contest the objective, and have had 7 turns of shooting something else.

This is a comparison of two units on the table in a vacuum, there isn't anything else for the marines to shoot at for 7 turns. What it highlights is that the design element of Guardians is their ability to outmaneuver and threaten things while limiting their exposure.

This proves absolutely nothing about guardians. You understand that, right?

Well it proves that Guardians are not a blunt instrument and that they can be effective if used appropriately. I'm also thinking that no one has provided anything other than 'not liking' them as evidence that Guardians somehow represent a poor value either.

[ShadowcatX]

This is a comparison of two units on the table in a vacuum, there isn't anything else for the marines to shoot at for 7 turns. What it highlights is that the design element of Guardians is their ability to outmaneuver and threaten things while limiting their exposure.



Well it proves that Guardians are not a blunt instrument and that they can be effective if used appropriately. I'm also thinking that no one has provided anything other than 'not liking' them as evidence that Guardians somehow represent a poor value either.

Did you miss the comparison to skitarri vanguard earlier?

[Mr Mystery]

Skitarii Vanguard - one unit amongst a whopping choice of seven units within its army.

Guardians - one unit amongst how many? units within its army.

As for anecdote, again re-read my post. In itself it is an anecdote, and has not been presented otherwise. It's a post about why, as only an opponent to Eldar, I worry about Guardians.

Listen to your foe. Anything he worries about is unlikely to be rubbish. He may very well have a stronger perspective looking from the outside in. I tend to leave them alone to focus instead on your aggressive units - whilst actively trying to avoid wandering into that 12" bubble of indiscriminate death.

[Path Walker]

I think people are complaining because Eldar now need a bit of finese again rather than relying of wave serpent spam.

[ShadowcatX]

Skitarii Vanguard - one unit amongst a whopping choice of seven units within its army.

Guardians - one unit amongst how many? units within its army.

Your point? This isn't a comparison of the two armies.

As for anecdote, again re-read my post. In itself it is an anecdote, and has not been presented otherwise. It's a post about why, as only an opponent to Eldar, I worry about Guardians.

Listen to your foe. Anything he worries about is unlikely to be rubbish. He may very well have a stronger perspective looking from the outside in. I tend to leave them alone to focus instead on your aggressive units - whilst actively trying to avoid wandering into that 12" bubble of indiscriminate death.

Unless of course my foe is contradictory, you act like you are terrified of guardians, while simultaneously saying they are not worth your time to kill.

The simple fact that you don't view them as worth killing yet knowing they die very easy (by your own admission) should tell you they aren't good.

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I think people are complaining because Eldar now need a bit of finese again rather than relying of wave serpent spam.

And I think some people have reading difficulties. Guardians were put forward as a unit that is good, but over shadowed. I am contesting that opinion.

So far the evidence put forward on the pro-guardian side is if you don't allow a unit of marines to shoot or charge them, and the marines stay in line of sight, guardians will, over the courseof the game, kill 4-5 marines. And, lest I forget, in one random game guardians did well once.

On the con-guardian side is a comparison of the guardian vs a vanguard which makes the guardian look like utter trash, and the fact that if the marines shoot back at the guardians you have a pile of dead guardians. And the fact that opponents don't think guardians are even worth killing.

Which argument sounds better to you?

[Mr Mystery]

Uh huh. Right.

If you really can't see why direct, unit for unit comparisons across armies are foolish, nor even entertain the points of anyone else, because you've clearly made up your mind, why exactly do you continue?