I am loving 40k right now!

[confoo22]

4. New factions are nice, and it's good to see some classic stuff come back, but some of it concerns me. The Harlequins were okay. The Mechanicus, though, feels like they're going to release three books when one would suffice: two sub-factions and then the core combined faction, drawing out the releases and rules to get as much from people as possible. That concern makes me think I might want to avoid them for now. It's also rough when they're packing things so close together. Harlequins barely had time to be in the spotlight before Daemonkin came along, and then they were quickly forgotten for Skitarii, who were dropped from conversation with the Eldar bringing all manner of madness to the table, and we're about to just toss them aside from collective conscious for the Knights and then the Cult Mechanicus, and then that'll be forgotten for whatever comes next... It feels like there's not enough time for a player to really appreciate a new release before the next big thing comes in and grabs the spotlight, and then passes it off quickly.

I'm trying not to be a "debbie downer," just providing counter-points to the points made, things that people might not consider in their bliss.

Though I do admit that I was stung by the claim that those of us not enjoying the game just dislike change. Aside from feeling like it's an attempt to paint those who disagree in a negative light, it's also incredibly wrong for a lot of us. One of my issues is that, as someone who isn't good with doing the same thing too much and thus has a number of armies (thanks to the passage of time and also inheriting my dad's armies), it's hard to keep up with the updates for the armies I already have, and I like to switch between them.

My theory on the current release schedule with all the new releases is that they're trying to cram as much 40k stuff as they can before they focus on the rollout of WHFB 9th for about two to three months solid. I must admit that it would be really nice to be able to take a breath from the constant release of codexes and see how these armies actually play on the tabletop.

And Erik, I know I've personally said some negative things about you in the past, but honestly, don't let people get you down about that kind of crap. Too often people forget (myself included unfortunately) that others online are also people who are allowed their opinions and come from their own background and have their reasons for thinking the way that they do. Just because someone doesn't enjoy the rapid release or the direction of the game doesn't make them some kind of wretched being who has an ulterior motive or is brainless, sometimes they just do or don't like the way things are going because they do or don't like the way things are going. No one deserves to be ostracized or mocked for expressing opinion in a clear, non-combative fashion that's meant to add to the conversation in a constructive fashion. Again, I know my personal history with certain comments may go against some of what I wrote here, but we are all imperfect beings, aren't we?

As for the original topic, I am personally really enjoying 40k lately. I've been in an escalation league at my local store, playing more games than ever with another private club, and hit up a local tournament. Though there have been some bad games where my dice betrayed me and some games where rules discussion take up more time than dice rolling, I feel like I've never had such a variety of opponents who are all interested in just playing some 40k as I do now. Also helps that I don't care so much about winning. One of the best games I've ever had was where I got absolutely stomped by new BA, but the opponent and I were just laughing and hanging out. As weird as this may sound, for me the game is always better when it's less about the game.

[Alaric]

Is this supposed to be an all-positive thread?

LOL yer never positive dude, unless yer positive aboot disliking this game that you repeatedly remind everyone you dislike. You get an A for consistency though.

Started in fifth and have loved the game more every single year. I think what i like most though is the fact that every year there seem to be less nay sayers which is A Ok as the world seems more full of whiners lately. I look forward to the next 2 years as I think they found out (finally) how they wanna do things.

[Grand Master Raziel]

I'll admit to having more fun playing 40K over the past few months than I have at any time in the past. However, it's almost in spite of the current rules rather than because of them. I found myself mentoring a new group of 40K players, and I came up with house rules to curb the worst of the excesses 7th edition creates. As a result, we've yet to have a game that was not at least reasonably close, and it's not uncommon to have games that are right down to the wire.

Our house rules are below, if you're interested.
1: Armies should be 40% Troops. So a 1000pt army should have 400pts in troops, a 1500pt army should have 600pts in Troops, and so on.


2: Allies / Detachments / Formations
Armies must be comprised of at least one Battle Forged Primary Detachment. Army lists may not include Allies from Codices representing fully fleshed out factions. Army lists may include Allies from Dataslates, as long as they do not draw units from Codices representing fully fleshed out factions. Army lists may include Formations, which may be fielded as additional Detachments as necessary.

3: Flyers rules
We're going to handle flyers a little differently than what's in the rules. People with flyers, don't include them in your lists. However, at game time, you can tell your opponent you'd like to include a flyer. If your opponent agrees, you can include the flyer without altering your list. Your opponent then has the opportunity to add an equal number of points to his/her list. They can take any combination of flyer of their own, a unit with Skyfire, and/or a fortification with an anti-air upgrade, up to the amount of points the flyer you are using. No more than 1 flyer may be used per list.

4: Super heavy vehicles / Gargantuan Creatures
As with Flyers, do not include them in your main list. At game time, you can tell your opponent you would like to include one of these. If your opponent agrees, you can include the unit in question without altering your list. Your opponent then has the opportunity to ad an equal number of points to his/her list. This unit takes up your Lord of War slot on the FOC.

5: A player may only use the power dice from one psyker at a time for casting powers or for making dispel attempts. Dice from multiple psykers may never be combined for a single roll.

[blueshift]

Allow me to counter some things.

1. I have no problem with change. However, when I'm required to change my entire army at the expense of hundreds of dollars, that becomes a problem, yes.

2. One of my biggest problems is that there are so many units that right now feel like they do absolutely nothing, or at least so little that it feels like they might as well not be there. Like Space Marine Tactical Squads, which I love for the fluff, but bolters bounce off a lot of monstrous creatures, do nothing to tanks, and don't do much to slow down something like Thunderwolf Cavalry, who only need about three guys to mulch through four Tactical Squads (only a *slight* exaggeration). Heck, a lot of times it comes down to rock-paper-scissors army selection, and if I wants to play RPS, I could do that without spending 4-5 hours.

3. A new codex every couple of years might not be so bad if they weren't $50 base. If Orks get an update in a couple of years, here's what becomes obsolete:
Codex $50
Waaagh! Ghazghkull $50
White Dwarf (21?) $4
Red Waaagh! Ork formations $50
Hour of the Wolf formations $50
Stormclaw character
Let's be generous and leave out the campaign books and say, "Hey, you can still use them for Planetstrike" (oh, except that's available as a $17 download). Still over $100 of rules gone after just two years. Which is what Eldar players went through. And Knight players are already paying $41 more for a new codex. And the core rulebook is $85. Pulling $50 or more out of us every couple of years is not cool. Also, the more factions they release, the harder it'll be to redo the rules that fast. There's nearly 20 factions/subfactions already, not counting digital stuff or upcoming stuff, and not even taking into account supplements like Waaagh! Ghazghkull or Champions of Fenris. Toss in Genestealer Cults, full AdMech, make a Sisters codex, a Deathwatch codex, an Inquisition codex, before you even consider the idea of stuff like Tzeentch Daemonkin, and you're about to hit 24 factions, which will mean that on a two year "refresh" cycle it's at least one 40K army per month getting a new codex, something that can't be feasible if Warhammer gets relaunched successfully. And at some point, that'll become very unprofitable for GW, because it'll drive players to give up buying the books and they'll just "borrow" them more often, leaving GW not just with a lot of unsold books (which get destroyed), but also new books that aren't selling.

4. New factions are nice, and it's good to see some classic stuff come back, but some of it concerns me. The Harlequins were okay. The Mechanicus, though, feels like they're going to release three books when one would suffice: two sub-factions and then the core combined faction, drawing out the releases and rules to get as much from people as possible. That concern makes me think I might want to avoid them for now. It's also rough when they're packing things so close together. Harlequins barely had time to be in the spotlight before Daemonkin came along, and then they were quickly forgotten for Skitarii, who were dropped from conversation with the Eldar bringing all manner of madness to the table, and we're about to just toss them aside from collective conscious for the Knights and then the Cult Mechanicus, and then that'll be forgotten for whatever comes next... It feels like there's not enough time for a player to really appreciate a new release before the next big thing comes in and grabs the spotlight, and then passes it off quickly.

I'm trying not to be a "debbie downer," just providing counter-points to the points made, things that people might not consider in their bliss.

Though I do admit that I was stung by the claim that those of us not enjoying the game just dislike change. Aside from feeling like it's an attempt to paint those who disagree in a negative light, it's also incredibly wrong for a lot of us. One of my issues is that, as someone who isn't good with doing the same thing too much and thus has a number of armies (thanks to the passage of time and also inheriting my dad's armies), it's hard to keep up with the updates for the armies I already have, and I like to switch between them.

Oh my god, for once I agree with Setzer!

Someone earlier said "its an adventure". Adventure in GOTCHA! tactics, maybe.

There was once a point where I could say I had every weapon profile memorized, and it didn't feel like a burden, but now it definitely feels like a burden.

That same person earlier said "people are afraid of change". As far as the meta goes, yes, its change. But adding new stuff to the rules set without any sense of balance for all the other existing rules creates a ridiculous arms-race snowball effect. The temptation to buy stuff just to counter a guy you don't like (or hell even someone you do like) is pretty damn high and GW is 100% aware of that fact.

GOTCHA!

then the next week the opposing player buys a unit or two, paints it up for another GOTCHA!

ping-pong back and forth until the players are confronted with the next codex when player 3 enters the fray. GOTCHA!

Of course this is not a scenario with 100% player saturation, there are the competitive players (bless their hearts) and narrative players (which have problems with the existing rules balance).

Personally I'm probably going to freeze my model purchases until the dust settles.

Finally, I can join the ranks of inactive complainers at Bell of Lost Souls! WE. ARE. LEGION!

[40kGamer]

I look forward to the next 2 years as I think they found out (finally) how they wanna do things.

I doubt they've settled on anything. GW changes design philosophies faster than a celebrity hosting an awards show changes outfits.

[Lexington]

From an abstract POV, I can enjoy 40K right now. It's great to see smaller factions like the Inquisition, Harlequins and the Mechanicus get the sort of flexible representation I've long wanted them to have. The game itself, from a base rules standpoint, is fun and flexible. There's tools to create a fun game in there, so long as you ignore the crappy Mission system, which sits absolutely opposite of the "narrative" push that the rest of the rulebook takes.

Unfortunately, I play Orks. The Ork Codex, simply put, is no good. It's an army that relies on close combat in a game that heavily favors shooting, and isn't actually very good at close combat anyway. It has shooting attacks that can be devastating if you roll high, but fairly worthless with anything else. There's several other armies that are in a similar boat. There's just no useful reason for my army to take on the new Necrons or Eldar, with their ridiculous firepower, special rules and metaformations - not just against face-stomping competitive types, but even against a normal opponent. It's a sad situation for those of us who didn't make the cut for the new design paradigm, and the vague promise of "someday."

[deinol]

Anyone who was paying attention to the ad mech rumors had a pretty good idea going in that Skitarii was just the tip of the iceberg. So if you want to wait for a mega book, go ahead. You don't have to buy the little ones along the way. I for one am happy to collect them, and reward GW for finally making new factions.

While I can see why it's annoying for knight players to buy a new codex, it sounds like the existing kits aren't changing the rules, so you can keep playing out of your existing book for the foreseeable future.

From my perspective, GW is finally producing enough stuff to satisfy demand. You don't need to buy every book or every model. You don't even need to retool your army much on a new release if you don't want to. Eldar work fine in CAD still.

So I'm loving it. New Eldar book is getting me excited to paint up those aspect warriors that are sitting on the shelf. It'll be a while before I try a little ad mech, but I look forward to facing then on the table.

GW: bring it on. Especially new cool (old) stuff like Sisters, Genestealer Cults, Kroot, Rogue Traders, etc.

[Erik Setzer]

I have said way too much, and deleted a lot more... curse of trying to explain things clearly and using a lot of words. So I'll try for a short series of comments on comments since my last.

When you to change how an army works to match the new rules for the army, it's redoing the army, and it's not cheap. My primary army is Orks, and they went hardcore away from the assault they used to be good at, to now being much more of a shooty army, which meant completely changing the army. I got lucky, I had the stuff around to change my army for the most part, but if I hadn't, it'd be hundreds of dollars. The army isn't playable the way it used to be. There are other armies that have changed. Space Wolves got a lot of new stuff, and that's their counter to other nasties, so if you have a SW army, you need some of that stuff. My Blood Angels, the last time I played them, weren't that deviated from normal Marines, but now have special tanks, special Dreadnoughts, Honor Guard, etc. (mercifully Deathstorm alleviated some of the costs).

Being mainly an Ork player is probably one of the biggest issues for my enjoyment of the game. I painted thousands of points of models to build a new army, and now it feels like it just bounces off of other armies and gets run over. Some I can give a good showing, like I could probably have a good match with Khorne Daemonkin (which would be quite funny, too). Necrons? Eldar? Space Wolves? Even Skitarii? Not so much. And one-sided affairs take a toll on a person.

I do like seeing the new stuff. I talk about it with people, I help make sure people are informed of what's coming up, I've bought some of it (yeah, I have Execution Force on the way). Which is why it sucks for me to feel like I do about the game. Despite how some people would portray my feelings on the game, I really do like 40K as a universe and a lot of the models and all, and I do my best to bring in new people to the hobby and get them stuck in there... but man, it just takes a toll on you to realized you can't compete in the rock-paper-scissors style, especially when you don't have any of those to bring to the table. I can spend a lot of money and paint a lot more stuff (not likely soon, as I've done ~6-7K of Orks and 7K of Undead in less than a year's time) to get back into being able to not be blown off the table (for now), but then you look at all the cool board games out there, and other minis games to try, and it's hard to want to shell out even more money after being burned so many times.

I guess I have a "love-hate" relationship with it. Love the fluff (most of it), love the models, hate the current rules (meaning codices and all) and how expensive it's getting.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Orks are in the same position this edition that Chaos Space Marines were for 6th: first codex out the gate in a new edition seems not to actually be representative of the new edition philosophy (probably because it was substantially written in the previous edition, or with playtest rules primarily in mind), while the "true" pattern only really emerges after about a year or so. Necrons, with its bespoke Detachment structure, was probably the first fully-formed 7th edition codex.

I wish it were otherwise, fwiw. It's always sad to hear that people aren't enjoying the army they've invested so much into.

[Lexington]

Orks are in the same position this edition that Chaos Space Marines were for 6th: first codex out the gate in a new edition seems not to actually be representative of the new edition philosophy (probably because it was substantially written in the previous edition, or with playtest rules primarily in mind), while the "true" pattern only really emerges after about a year or so. Necrons, with its bespoke Detachment structure, was probably the first fully-formed 7th edition codex.

The structure and layout of Codex: Orks makes me think that it was written with 7th fully in mind. More, it was the first book of a fairly toned-down series. Those were all very much 7th Edition books. The Necrons and Eldar don't represent "real" 7th Ed development - they're a mid-edition change, most likely brought on from internal panic over the company's poor financial showing.

Also, I'm pretty sure most any Chaos Marine player would remind you that they're still stuck with that crappy 6th Ed book, while the Eldar have gotten not one, but two top-tier books in the interim.