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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Setzer View Post
    Ok, see? See this, here? You're mocking concerns, claiming they aren't legitimate, and missing the point.
    Not all concerns are legitimate. I will, however, attempt to be less flippant.

    They didn't change things to answer criticisms. And no one's complaining about options, either. Let me see if I can get around your attitude enough to explain this again.

    Codex: Orks came out, had a new detachment style and basic formation. It was followed with a supplement with lots of other formations, another detachment style, some other stuff. This is the "new style." Cool, okay, I can dig it. Space Wolves and Dark Eldar followed in the same suit. Meanwhile, Grey Knights got an update, and the Blood Angels, pretty much the same, only sans a supplement, because, well, there's only so much you can do with them. Mostly these armies were toned down, too. This is the new 7th edition style. Okay. Most of these also saw some stuff in campaign supplements.
    And through it all people complained "there's too many books coming out" and "I shouldn't have to buy 2 books to get content that could go into one book."

    Then Necrons show up. Suddenly instead of a new FOC detachment (which they actually got in a supplement, strangely), they get a mega-detachment meant for Epic 28mm sized games. Oh, and if you want to run that, you MUST take a certain combo of units. It actually presents less choice than a standard FOC detachment would.
    First, Epic has absolutely nothing to do with the reclamation legion. Second, which is more options, having the FoC only, or having the option to choose between the FoC or the reclamation legion?

    Formations were folded into the book, no supplement.
    Which directly deals with the whole "too many books coming out" and "I shouldn't have to buy two books to get what should be in my single codex".

    Harlequins come along, do the whole formations in the book thing, but go right back to a normal new FOC detachment. Then Daemonkin, with the Epic 28mm detachment. Then Skitarii with the FOC detachment. Then Eldar with the Epic 28mm detachment. And, of course, with the big ones, you must take X and Y to have Z... so not really as much flexibility. And we're now about to have Knights and then Cult Mechanicus, with the Knights confirmed to have a FOC detachment.
    Ok, slow down. Eldar has formations as well as the warhost, which is itself, just a large formation. There is no difference between it and any other detachment or formation or the FoC. Harlequins and Skitarri were both smaller releases, so they it is no surprise that they don't have a formation with the flexibility of the warhost / decurion. They do, however, have large formations / detachments. I'll admit, I don't know if Daemonkin has other formations or not. Either way, they're all just options and other ways to bring armies. Options are good.

    And even within that series of books, the balance is off. You have a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage in the Daemonkin book priced at 275 points. Then you have a Wraithknight in Craftworld Eldar at 295 points. The Wraithknight is much tougher than the Bloodthirster, pretty much just as fast, has a Str D CCW that strikes at Initiative, has Stomp attacks to deal even more damage to hordes of infantry, same armor and inv. save, and is just so much better. And yet, it's only 20 points more.
    No one is arguing that the Wraithknight isn't under priced. For all that I love the Eldar codex, even I say it was a mistake. I do have a question though. Is the bloodthirster of insensate rage a LoW slot, or an HQ choice, if HQ slot, is it unique? Not that it matters a whole lot, just for my own curiousity.

    We'll just set aside the valid complaint that people with Orks, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar had to pay $100 for what newer codices are charging $50-$58 for. The style is flip-flopping, and there's not much cohesion to the internal contents.
    Are price drops a bad thing? This is what I don't get. You're complaining about this, but it is a step in the right direction. Sure, it sucks for orks players, space wolf players, and dark eldar players (of which I am one), but just because it sucks for them should it not be fixed for everyone else?

    And in some cases, it seems they aren't considering the potential ramifications of some of the rules they're printing, such as being able to Scout a bloody Fortress of Redemption (which you can totally do in the Skitarii codex). Or that you can ally Khorne Daemonkin with CSM, attach characters to CSM units (like Havocs), and get Blood Tithe points for units they destroy (while using psykers to get buffs and maybe even summon in more Daemons, because why not?).
    Ok, being able to scout move a fortress is a bit hilarious, but really, is it game breaking? Ditto the allying in Khorne daemonkin with CSM? You complain that they aren't power houses, perhaps those codices have those types of things in mind when they're published.

    but the game itself feels like it's starting to suffer.
    How so? I don't feel like I'm suffering. I'm excited, half the units in my old codex were totally unplayable. Now I can field Aspect Warriors. The tournament scene hasn't died. Where is this suffering, other than in people that just want to complain because someone else got something nice?

    Oh, and charging me $35 for a Kindle version of a codex that looks like no one bothered to put in serious effort? Not cool. Those things have lines where the font is so big they wrap around, unit profiles and other tables designed as images that don't show up at the proper size and are barely readable, and are overall just ugly looking. The iPad version they like to show off might seem pretty, but the version for Kindles, which is still freaking $35, looks like they didn't even try. Sorry, but if I'm paying $35 for an ebook, it should have some effort and testing put into it.
    Again, a totally legitimate gripe. I don't have a kindle so I wouldn't have a clue how it looked on one.

    Let's see... Triple Flyrant, IIRC, is something you need a supplement for, and is a specialized style of Tyranid army.
    Why does that matter in the least?

    Daemons *aren't* particularly great if you're not using the cheeky buggery tricks (which still aren't as potent as they used to be). Not going to say they "suck," but I won't put basic Daemons "up there."
    I'm pretty sure Daemons have been getting top spots in tournaments about as consistently as the old Eldar codex that people griped was so broken.

    And you also give an example of a "death star" backed by units not in the codex and sold by Forge World, so not considered part of a "codex list."
    Which matters in what way?

    Yeah, death stars can fight other death stars. What an interesting game that is. (That was sarcasm, since I'm sure people didn't catch that, and I think a lot of people actually believe Cheesehammer *is* interesting.)
    So anyone who plays the game differently than you do is having bad wrong fun and should stop? How does this comment do anything but insult other people's play styles?

    As to the other "point," I don't play MtG for a reason. And yeah, way to go comparing a card game to a miniatures game. Want to justify GW's moves with stuff EA does in video games?
    I'm just telling you how the whole gaming industry works, it isn't GW out to be evil or anything, its the common and best practice. It is what it takes to keep people buying new stuff, to keep the meta changing to new stuff. I mean, how boring would the game be if you just bought 1850 points of an army and never changed it, never had to adapt to other armies or power changes in your codex, you just kept using the same army from the 1990s. Do you think your opponents would enjoy playing against the exact same thing every time for 20+ years?
    If people played as often as they complained, we'd all have a lot more fun.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    That's because you're some kinda dream boat
    Aww shucks
    Fan of Fuggles | Derailment of the Wolfpack of Horsemen | In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Setzer View Post
    Well, I mean, if you played Khorne.

    Heck, every large model I have is "christened," too. Not so much on purpose. I tend to get out a fresh X-Acto blade when starting on a new project, to make sure everything's clean. And then I just act like someone who doesn't know what safety is (I do, I just don't actively think about it while modeling), and inevitably slice myself. Sliced four fingers *and* stabbed a file into my thumb while working on the Knight. At one point, I was bleeding so much parts of the model were sticking to my hand. I just primed and painted right over it. And that Knight became a terror.

    (My lawyer says I should note that I'm not advocating that anyone purposely injure him/herself in order to gain a competitive advantage in a game.)
    Oh I meant Eww to the Nurgle / Slaanesh equivalent of christening my models......lets be honest, it'd be a little disturbing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfshade View Post
    I personally observe that its all kicked off as I started posting less..
    we miss you wolf, come back
    Morbid Angels:http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?7100-Morbid-angel-WIP
    I probably come across as a bit of an ***, don't worry I just cannot abide stupid.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfshade View Post
    Aww shucks
    Infamy!
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mystery View Post
    Infamy!
    It's on the internet it must be true
    Fan of Fuggles | Derailment of the Wolfpack of Horsemen | In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni

  6. #26

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    Dirty boy!
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  7. #27
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    I think it's a shame that this thread got bumped all the way to the oubliette.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    I think it's a shame that this thread got bumped all the way to the oubliette.
    Agreed.
    If people played as often as they complained, we'd all have a lot more fun.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    I agree with everything said here, and I have no problem with people who have something negative to say as long as they say it in a productive way. That is not the case about 90% of the time lately. I am not a blind supporter of GW, however, I am hugely enjoying the releases lately.
    The model releases have been great over the past few months. I’m not enthused by all the rules rewriting going on as GW often goes the government route when they tinker with things… meaning they typically make a bad situation worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Part of the problem (so I do understand your final paragraph) is that people assume that because I am not on here trash talking constantly, I must be a "everything-GW-does-is-right" person, which btw is not necessarily a bad thing, and jump on anything positive I post. I really wish that sometimes people who have a bunch of negative to say would start their own threads and include a warning in the title rather than hijacking what could be a reasonable discussion.
    Nothing wrong with being mostly positive. If you’ve found your happy place in the hobby then even when you don’t like the things that are being done it doesn’t impact your feelings overall. If you ever do feel the need to trash talk GW constantly then you should add in some other games to relieve the negativity. It just isn’t healthy to be perpetually angry… unless you’re an angry marine or something… then it’s ok.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    To get back to where this thread started, I have bought DA, Generic SM (battle company of each), 3 knights (as of tomorrow), CSM (over 2k points) and the starts of SW, Skitari and AS. in the last couple of months...posted question, proposed lists and the starts of general discussions about some of them, but the communities here and in other places barely respond. Most responses are how to cut and paste a "net list" into what I have, or what "Deathstar" I should include if I wanna complete. Any knight list I suggest, or just wanna chat about is either hit with "they aren't gonna be allowed in tournaments anyway" or "hope ya have a tolerant group of friends" rather than any real discussion.
    Nice list of armies. A little Imperium centric but that at least opens up the BB allies options. People are going to hate on the Knights until the next ‘more’ awful thing comes along. Eldar should be taking some of heat off the Knights now as they have the potential to be extraordinarily nasty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    And for conversations sake, when did it become OK to even consider banning an entire army (Knights)? I don't like Eldar or GK or Black Templars...never have...and in many of the editions, these armies have been very hard to beat (tournament or not)...but no one serious ever said...we should just pretend the army doesn't exist...remove it from tournament play. Not once.
    There has been an increased amount of event tweaking going on… IMO it’s the community reaction to GW turning 40k into Epic… for better or worse that is where things are now. Unbound play is essentially banned from events so it’s a small leap to block armies, units or formations. It’s a shame how things are too. I would love to bust out my suboptimal Arbites for giggles but it just isn’t going to happen. Organizers haven’t found a way to fold in fun fluffy unbound lists without opening the gates to their evil asshat step-siblings. Such is our community.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    I think it's a shame that this thread got bumped all the way to the oubliette.
    All the best threads are in the oube
    Fan of Fuggles | Derailment of the Wolfpack of Horsemen | In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni

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