What if all Dreadnoughts were Monstrous Creatures?

[YorkNecromancer]

Once they release a new model, we will see the switch

Ironclads and Furiosos suggest you are wrong. Both of them were released with the same middling survivability, which has only decreased over time. The one thing Furiosos had going for them - 'exploding' wounds off of their Blood Talons - has been taken away, leaving the pair of them as average-but-not-as-good-as-other-stuff assault specialists who can't hold their own against characters, can't escape tarpits, can't really reliably defeat anything in assault actually, and are basically nowhere near as terrifying as they should be.

The only solid dreadnought is the Contemptor, and that's because it's tougher than leather, has a forcefield, and its Kheres assault cannon are superb. Give the Contemptor stats to the regular dreads but keep the weapon options as they are, give Contemptors AV14 on the front to make them mildly different apart from their weapon options, and I think you solve 90% of the Dreadnought's problems.

[Lacy Jones]

I like the set of rules used at Nova for their special campaign game Look at the last 7 or so pages of this file: [URL="http://www.novaopen.com/wp-content/uploads/Narrative-40K-Primer-2014-NOVA-Open2.pdf"]Nova Narrative [/URL]

[Lacy Jones]

Dublicate

[Defenestratus]

Ironclads and Furiosos suggest you are wrong. Both of them were released with the same middling survivability, which has only decreased over time. The one thing Furiosos had going for them - 'exploding' wounds off of their Blood Talons - has been taken away, leaving the pair of them as average-but-not-as-good-as-other-stuff assault specialists who can't hold their own against characters, can't escape tarpits, can't really reliably defeat anything in assault actually, and are basically nowhere near as terrifying as they should be.

The only solid dreadnought is the Contemptor, and that's because it's tougher than leather, has a forcefield, and its Kheres assault cannon are superb. Give the Contemptor stats to the regular dreads but keep the weapon options as they are, give Contemptors AV14 on the front to make them mildly different apart from their weapon options, and I think you solve 90% of the Dreadnought's problems.

I donno - every time I've managed to use a furioso, its done its job. They attract a huge amount of fire and with Str 10 attacks, they always seem to get the job done against anything that they come across... the only issue they really have is with hordes but then hordes don't usually have the strength to get through the front AV13.

Overall I'm really happy with the furi's, even though I'm sad that the blood talon price is too expensive to really take seriously.

[Denzark]

I think giving Dreads MC - lets be honest - going back to when they had T and wounds - will give some parity with all these other 'robotic' walkers - as a SM dread should literally dread nothing. But you need to make some sort of MC (W) category wherein because they are not organic through and through, poison and force weapons does not do as well as it does against MCs. I don't think immune totally - because there is something fleshy inside after all.

However I am a fan of the save modifier. whereas GW introduced HP to show the degrading effect of damage to vehicles, there is no equivalent to show the varying ability of armour to deflect or absorb damage - it is all or nothing. I think on vehicles masquerading as MCs (ie WK, big tau, dreadknight) the effect is even more obvious using the current AV system than a save modifier system.

[Nykidemus]

What really sets aside MCs from walkers, and throws a huge disconnect around the survivability of walkers vs infantry, is Armor saves. This is especially the case in the 6-7th edition environment with Hull Points and mid-stength chip damage being the order of the day for taking down vehicles.

A space marine can be wounded by pretty much any weapon, but will save against anything that isnt armor piercing ~66% of the time. They will happily laugh off Autocannon rounds all day long.

A Dreadnought cant be hurt in the front by anything less than s6, but has no ability to defend itself against massed s6-7 fire. Given it only has three hull points, rather than the 10 wounds a squad of infantry has, it is significantly easier to take down with autocannon fire than a similar number of points worth of SM would be. It CAN die extra-good from dedicated anti-tank fire, but given the point values are usually so much higher it's almost always worth it to just run more medium-shots, even in a dedicated anti-vehicle role.

Big MCs require both high strength AND high AP. Being immune to roughly the same band of infantry weapons that the walker is, but shrugging off autocannon, or even krak missile fire like it isnt there, depending on it's armor save.

That's not even getting into some of the demon prince shenanigans where they can also rack up huge cover saves and such.

The Invuln saves are nice, but they're also really strong, and they dont differentiate what they're strong against. We DO want walkers to be killable by anti-tank fire, as they're effectively walking tanks.

I propose giving walkers a 3+ armor save. This gives them a chance to ignore wounds from mid-range weapons like assualt and auto cannons, as well as krak grenades, but leaves them just as vulnerable as they have been to missiles, lascannons, and other dedicated anti-vehicle options.

[Wildcard]

Okay theorycrafters, what about these changes:

- walkers ignore glances (would increase durability)
- Jink like coversave that would always be on (they move more randomly than tanks after all)
- More damage output (firepower for ranged, close combat provess for assault variants); Walkers rule "may always shoot all of their weapons.. kinda pointless with only 1-2 guns that can actually hurt stuff..

[The Madman]

From reading the rules just now I feel melee-wise they are a bit lacking; you'd expect something that is the size of a large van and is just as heavy to have a bit of smashing power to them. I feel they need an upgraded hammer of wrath attack (and the MCs as well) that works similar to impact hits in fantasy (say perhaps D3 auto hits) and perhaps a Stomp attack at the end of the CC round for them.

as for the Dreads themselves perhaps they need a points drop (going off the Helbrute here) to maybe 80-75 points and allow it to replace it's Power Fist for a ranged weapon rather then just the Multi-melta (like the Mortis Dreadnoughts, never understood why this was never an option for chaos marines). perhaps it comes as 80pts with starting equipment being two DCCs and then give them access to drop a fist (or both) for a ranged weapon (or two).

then again I've not played 7th yet so I don't know if that's balanced or busted as hell.

[phreakachu]

ok...
keep in mind, you gents who keep worrying about their sentines becoming t7, blahblahblah...
were talking dreadnaughts. 2000 year old space marines hardwired into a ginormous killbot.
not private first class frank, who gets to pilot a chickenwalker because he pulled the short straw and had to clean the previous pilot out of the cockpit.
were talking centuries of experience in the art of killing danm near everything the galaxy has to toss at him.

dreadnaughts should be monsterous creatures. period. the marine didnt die, he got a promotion.
because ive been hardwired into this ginormous killbot for a friggin millennium, but i cant seem to remember that i should shoot at the thing charging at me.and ive forgotten how to fight like the rest of my chapter.

something like this...
ws 5
bs 5
s 6
t 7
i 4
a 3
w 4
ld 10
sv 3plus, 5plus invulnerable

special rules
eternal warrior, fearless, chapter tactics
rampage... because a dread is 12 tons of stomping, whirring, killy death. and for fracks sake, when 20 termagaunts swarm one, he should be stepping on them, and swinging, and killing.

unstoppable... d3 how hits


ironclads would get 2plus armor, 4plus invuln,

venerable, 4plus invuln, add one to ws, bs or initiative.

extra armor, reroll armor and invuln saves.

[Mr Mystery]

I think all Walkers could go down Infantry stats, simply because there is a meatsack pilot involved somewhere (counting Necrons as fleshy for this ).

Sentinels? Statted in the realms of Tyranid Middlebugs.

Dreadnoughts - as discussed, could vary quite wildly.

It's been an interesting read so far - I wasn't aware I was in good company with feeling Dreadnoughts are currently a little 'meh'!