Super Heavies, Transports and Occupants?

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

Just built my shiny new Knight as a Crusader, because lots of dakka is always fun.

And it got me thinking....if I use my Thermal Cannon on a Transport and pop it, can I then hose down the freshly disembarked unit with the Avenger Gatling cannon, because weapons on Super Heavies can pick different targets?

[Houghten]

Nope.

[Mr Mystery]

Bugger.

[Charistoph]

Nope.

Reason? Remember, Split Fire prevents it, but nothing in the Super-Heavy rules prevent it.

[lobster-overlord]

Reason? Remember, Split Fire prevents it, but nothing in the Super-Heavy rules prevent it.

But the "declare all shots from a single vehicle/unit before taking them" does. The popped unit isn't on the table when you are to declare from the super-heavy, thus aren't legal targets until after the SH's shots are resolved.

[Houghten]

Before looking at the Super-Heavy Vehicle rules, look at the Shooting rules. Specifically, "The Shooting Sequence" box. Paraphrased:

Step 1, choose the unit with which you will shoot.

Step 2, choose the target.

Steps 3 to 6, choose a weapon and resolve its fire.

Step 7, if any remaining weapons, go to step 3.

Notice how step 7 does not return you to step 2. The target has already been picked, before you shot anything.

Now you can look in the Super-Heavy Vehicle rules for any contradictions. I can't find any. It can shoot each weapon at a different target if it wants to, but still has to determine targets before it fires anything.

This can also lead to wasted shots; say I decide to fire my both my supa-gatler and all three of my big shootas at a particularly irritating Doom Scythe, but due to an exceptionally Morky set of rolls I obliterate it with the supa-gatler. The big shootas now have nothing to fire at (although I should probably roll the dice for the number of shots it gets anyway, just to see if it jams).

- - - Updated - - -

Ninja'd by a lobster. Man, that burns.

[Charistoph]

But the "declare all shots from a single vehicle/unit before taking them" does. The popped unit isn't on the table when you are to declare from the super-heavy, thus aren't legal targets until after the SH's shots are resolved.

Where is that written? This issue has come up before and no one has been able to quote that before. That's how it was in 6th Edition, but not in 7th.

The Shooting Phase sets it up differently, I'll go in to later it since Houghten thinks he addressed it, but misquoted. Super-Heavy shooting rules simply state, "...it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired."

Before looking at the Super-Heavy Vehicle rules, look at the Shooting rules. Specifically, "The Shooting Sequence" box. Paraphrased:

Notice how step 7 does not return you to step 2. The target has already been picked, before you shot anything.

Now you can look in the Super-Heavy Vehicle rules for any contradictions. I can't find any. It can shoot each weapon at a different target if it wants to, but still has to determine targets before it fires anything.

This can also lead to wasted shots; say I decide to fire my both my supa-gatler and all three of my big shootas at a particularly irritating Doom Scythe, but due to an exceptionally Morky set of rolls I obliterate it with the supa-gatler. The big shootas now have nothing to fire at (although I should probably roll the dice for the number of shots it gets anyway, just to see if it jams).

You missed something. "Choose a Target" only allows for choosing a single enemy unit. To reuse your paraphrase:

1. Choose the unit that will shoot
2. Choose a single target
3. Select a Weapon
4. Roll To Hit
5. Roll To Wound
6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties
7. Select another weapon or end unit's shooting.

Now, Super-Heavies never say when this multiple target selection occurs. It doesn't say it changes the Choose a Single Target section, that is an assumption you are making. A reasonable assumption, but an assumption none the less.

Indeed, the only place I've found that actually sets down a process for how firing at multiple targets and mixes with the Shooting Sequence is under Split Fire. Split Fire has you select a model, process its fire, then process the rest of the unit's fire at another target and it cannot be a unit dismounted by the first shooter of the unit.

BUT, Super-Heavies do not have Split Fire. They have their own set of rules, but nothing actually written on how those rules are to be inserted in to the basic rules.

Split Fire provides a precedence in some ways, but also in others. On one hand, target selection is performed after a weapon's resolution, but cannot be used against a unit that just appeared on the field, but it is explicit in telling you that it cannot, indicating that such a notice is required in order to prevent it.

In short, the whole thing is a mess, and I do sincerely believe that the changes to the Shooting Phase in which each weapon's fire is resolved one at a time was one of the last things changed and no one had a map as to what it would affect, so many of the rules that were affected by it were never addressed before print, nor even FAQ'd up to now.

[Mr Mystery]

But the "declare all shots from a single vehicle/unit before taking them" does. The popped unit isn't on the table when you are to declare from the super-heavy, thus aren't legal targets until after the SH's shots are resolved.

I'll allow it.

[daboarder]

I'll allow it.

As in you will clearly ignore the rules?

Or deign to agree that your initial idea was incorrect?

Charistoph.

You choose 2 seperate targets in Step 2 (Superheavy >General), then resolve 1 weapon, then at step 7 you go back to step 3 with your remaining weapons and resolve them. They have already been declared against a target as per step 2 and therefore are not eligible to shoot at the occupants

[Charistoph]

Charistoph.

You choose 2 seperate targets in Step 2 (Superheavy >General), then resolve 1 weapon, then at step 7 you go back to step 3 with your remaining weapons and resolve them. They have already been declared against a target as per step 2 and therefore are not eligible to shoot at the occupants

Where does it say to do that, though? That is the question that has never been answered.

The Super-Heavy rules do not state "instead of choosing one target to shoot at, they may select multiple", it simply states, "...it may fire each of its weapons at different targets if desired."

Weapons can be fired at different times so is it allowed to change targets after resolving it? When firing two of the same weapon, are both resolved "at the same time"?

Simply put, there is no mechanic addressed for how Super-Heavies interact with the current Shooting Sequence with multiple targets. As I said to Houghten, it is a reasonable assumption that it is how you say, but it still remains an assumption.