Sniper Rifles

[BuFFo]

Soooo...

Your saying I should get all my firewarriors with carbines because every wound would force a pinning test? Even if you guys have it interpreted corectly do you think I would be able to get that to fly with people?

What ever happend to the Rulz Boyz? You guys ever try sening them an E-mail? I know I did on WBB and Sweeping Advance and sadly many weeks latter did get a responce.

Yes you should!

You do the same with your pathfinders and their marker lights right? You get a squad of identical weapons and hope to get stacked effects from them. So load up on carbines, and try to pin a unit. Pinning works now, so whats the problem?

And why do you need rulez boyz? The pinning rules leave no ambiguity. The only ambiguity is lost love for an edition past!

[Trinity]

My problem with taking a pinning test for each pinning weapon wound comes down to the rule itself and how the mechanics of the turn go.

You roll to hit.
You roll all like to wounds together.
Then the opponent assigns the wounds to models in the squad based on being differently equipped or not. Then he rolls all like groups together for saves.

Then you check to see if any of the unsaved wounds were from a pinning weapon. If so you make a leadership pinning test.

You can have multiple pins if multiple units shoot at the unit. Because each unit is rolled as a group.

So that is why I disagree it allows for each weapon to cause a pinning check individually.

T.

P.S. Good discussion so far.

[Slann]

As a tournament goer I am just telling you that's how it is played everywhere I have been too. I have traveled hundreds of miles to attend different tournys to the same thing , I field mortars so it comes up a lot , I also use scouts in SM , one check per squad shooting . I wish it was not the case cause this would make snipers worth what they should be . But its just not .You can play with your group however but don't be shocked if you go to a tourny and a judge tells you different .

Just a heads up .

[Old_Paladin]

I think another big thing with only taking one test is a speed of play thing; any number of wounds + single test = fast play.
Anything else = slow.

People would just milk it to their advantage (in a timed game). Look at ork nobs, taking saves one at a time, with re-rolls (one at a time to see if pinning even comes up), then roll moral, then boss-polling moral (cuz the rules do say test immediately after taking any unsaved wounds)... they pass and it goes on again and again and again, until maybe they fail a moral test... then simply roll the rest of the armour save. It's a dick move, but the game would allow it.

Edit: Pinning on snipers is just icing on the cake. The point of the rifles is rending and the ability to wound even the toughest target; if you take them simply to pin, I think you've missed the point.
In fact, with most pinning weapons pinning is just a nice little bonus. Almost all weapons that can't do damage and are simply pinners, they have additional special rules (horrorfex, marker-lights, etc.)

[Nabterayl]

Trinity,

I don't see the objection. It's not like you can't keep track of individual weapons in a single shooting attack. We do it all the time when units have multiple BS or different types of weapons. We can do it with multiple pinning weapons too.

Slann,

I understand this isn't how the tourney scene works, but while a judge's ruling or tourney rule is binding for that event, it isn't an argument as to what the language actually says.

[Old_Paladin]

After reading through the full pinning rules word by word.
The rules say "any unsaved wounds... takes a test." That's a test (singular). Many wounds, one test.

It also mentions taking multiple test in a turn, but doesn't say anything about multiple tests from a single volley of shooting.

[Javin]

SO um, still confused. One squad one pin test? Or does my army of 60 scouts cause potentially 60 pinning tests?

[Old_Paladin]

SO um, still confused. One squad one pin test? Or does my army of 60 scouts cause potentially 60 pinning tests?

I don't think anyone has reached a consensus yet.
Basically, it seems to depend on what you think, what your opponent will allow and what the judges (if any) tend to go with [and many judges side with: 1 unit 1 test).

[Nabterayl]

Yes, but it also says the weapon that caused the test, meaning a particular weapon. One test per weapon that inflicts an unsaved wound, no matter how many unsaved wounds the individual weapon inflicts.

EDIT: agreed, no consensus. I think the point of these threads is to provoke people's thoughts so they can discuss with their opponents and gaming groups, which is why I favor giving as detailed an analysis as I can. Your and your opponent's is the only consensus that matters.

[Trinity]

Trinity,

I don't see the objection. It's not like you can't keep track of individual weapons in a single shooting attack. We do it all the time when units have multiple BS or different types of weapons. We can do it with multiple pinning weapons too.

Nabterayl, nice to meet you.

The objection isnt about keeping track of dice. Thats easy and as you pointed out often done. I was using the sequence of a combat to show why I think it is only one die for a squad not per weapon.

The second paragraph in the pinning rules talks about how to determine if a pinning test is taken. It says ( and I am paraphrasing slightly) if a unit suffers any unsaved wounds caused by a pinning weapon take the test. It doesnt say take a test for each weapon.

So when I read that, to me it is saying make all your saving rolls. Are any of the unsaved wounds from the pinning weapon. If yes then take the test.

Hope that helps to clarify my thinking.

T.