Space Marine rules questions (Auspex and Chronus)

[Denzark]

Your argument is based entirely on RAI. Actually - I agree with you - not counting 'IG' as 'AM' is not clever. For me, if someone was stupid enough to put Pask in one of those variants, I'd go with it.

But you can't just make a leap and 'staple' the IA entries into 102. Just because it doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you can with 40K. There are no more implied rules to state Pask can go in a Conqueror then there are to state he can ride the back of a captured Defiler.

The tank commander entry specifically refers to a page in the Codex AM that does not have the word 'conqueror' or 'annihilator' written in that entry. Therefore, my comment that it is 'pure RAW' stands.

[Houghten]

Pure Codex RAW, perhaps. You have quite firmly stuck to that one line in the Tank Commander unit entry. What I do is read as many rules as possible, twice, and then try to reconcile them all with each other despite their clearly not having been designed to do so.

Here's another line, or rather a pair of them: "A Tank Commander starts the game in a Leman Russ tank (pg 46), leading a Leman Russ Squadron. Note that any type of Leman Russ can be taken as the commander's vehicle, and that it can have any upgrades usually available to that type of tank."

Now, laying aside that you can't simultaneously choose a tank from pages 46 and 102, the only types of Leman Russ tank on pg 46 are the Battle Tank and the Exterminator. So what we have here are three separate statements, in order of restrictiveness:
1) any type of Leman Russ can be taken as the commander's vehicle
2) must take one Leman Russ from those listed on page 102
3) starts the game in a Leman Russ tank (pg 46)

All I'm doing is going with #1. Why? Because page references are there for your comfort and convenience when flipping back and forth through a book, not for excluding Forge World options.

---

P.S. Why do you keep saying RAI like it's a dirty word?

[Haighus]

Ok, the Pask discussion is all very well and good, and I can see the ruling either way, although Houghten lays out a very compelling argument with the 3 statements, are we in agreement that Chronus is available to any Tank available to the Space Marines faction and included in a detachment using the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics?

[Denzark]

I'm only continuing this discussion because of your earlier insistence that this wasn't RAW. You have softened that to 'pure codex RAW perhaps'. Technically correct is the best sort of correct!

I don't think I have implied any negative weight to RAI. But arguing over RAI is subjective - RAW is objective. RAW is a matter of pure English comprehension. RAI is, without the primary source evidence of that rule/codex writer further explaining it, is simply a matter of opinion.

Hark back to Pre-FAQ codex CSM. Factions were split as to whether or not Plague zombies could be taken as mobs of 35, based on a restriction on plague zombies taking upgrades. But the extra cultists are listed in the upgrade section. In the end, whilst RAW was correct - 10 was the limit by RAW, the matter was FAQ'd - yes you can take 35. I was given an infraction on here for gloating about it!

But RAI is nothing without context.

What you referred to at number 2 above is an absolutely explicit restriction. I say that prevents anything outside 102 being taken. You say RAI is that number 2 comes into play - any LR tank and INTENDING to disregard the number 2 restrictions. I say RAI is any tank within that codex - because we don't chop and change upgrades or options between codexes/rulebooks.

That is the problem with RAI, entirely down to opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes Haighus, sorry to digress, I think your latter interpretation of Chronus deployment is correct.

He has no page number restricting his choice, this is why he has an open book and Pask don't.

But what do you think of the idea of Chronus in the Excelsior?

[Houghten]

"pure Codex RAW" was meant to be a barb, not soft. I'm saying you only "count as" right if you never read Imperial Armour.

Also, RAW isn't objective. I never understand why people say that. Words aren't fixed, double-super-especially in English. Note how in 7th, the rules for assaulting through cover were updated to state that even if a unit is not slowed by difficult terrain, its Initiative is still reduced. Previously, it was not clear that "slowed" referred only to move distance, not attack speed.

So... context, eh?

In the beginning (not counting the first twenty-odd years), there was Codex: Imperial Guard. It had Leman Russ tank squadrons in it, but no tank commanders.
Following that, Forge World brought out Imperial Armour Volume One Second Edition, with a couple of extra Leman Russ tank types in it, and the ability to add them into Leman Russ squadrons. They could also be taken in the variant army list, the Armoured Company, where everything is tanks and commanded by Command Tanks. Interestingly, the Tank Commanders in the Armoured Company can't sit in whatever Leman Russ type they desire - the Russes are split along three lines: Battle Tanks, which includes Battle Tanks (duh), Vanquishers, Conquerors, Exterminators, Eradicators and Annihilators; Siege Tanks, which includes Demolishers, Thunderers, Punishers and Executioners; and Destroyers, which includes Destroyers. The Command Tanks (and the Commissar Tanks) can only take the types associated with Battle Tanks.
Later, Codex: Imperial Guard was replaced by Codex: Astra Militarum. Aside from making most of the tanks cheaper, the big change there was that it had tank commanders. However, it pointedly ignored almost everything in Imperial Armour; the Leman Russ variants, the Machariuses, the Trojans, the Atlases, the Tauruses, the Vultures... you get the idea. If it's resin, this book pretends it doesn't exist. (The one exception was the Vendetta, which had been in Codex: Imperial Guard and converted by just about every Imperial Guard player in existence; it was a bit late to remove it by then, though I'm surprised they didn't plasticise it.) It also let its Tank Commanders play in Siege Tanks, on account of making no distinctions between the types and just bundling them all up in the same squadron.

It is at this point that anyone using the phrase "Rules As Intended" must ask the question "Rules as who intended"? Because as much as FW try to adapt to GW, the opposite is as imaginable as a blue sun. It's plain as day from the way they can be command tanks in the Armoured Company list that FW intended the Annihilator and Conqueror to be eligible for Commanders, and if they were to write Imperial Armour Volume One Third Edition I'd bet every last dollar I've hidden away that their unit entries would subtly change to accomodate the fact that the Codex has Tank Commanders now, but it's equally plain that GW intended to stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la la la can't hear you!"

Given that they're FW tanks, I'd align myself with FW intentions.

(actually, I'd just take an Armoured Company list and never take a single Guardsman, not even one poking his head out of the top of the tank, thus avoiding the whole question by never picking up the Codex, but that's not really the point.)

Still silly to put Pask in one instead of a generic commander, of course. Not when he could be Rending things in a Punisher.

(I also don't know why you think we don't chop and change upgrades. The XV81 and XV84 battlesuits in Imperial Armour 3 are listed as Signature Systems for a unit in Codex Tau Empire; you add them to the Signature Systems list just like you add the Conqueror and Annihilator to the Leman Russ Squadron entry. Legacies of Glory in Imperial Armour 2 are as much for units in Codex: Space Marines as for the book they're in. To say nothing of the Badab War Chapter Tactics and Characters...)

---

P.S. Chronus in a Fellblade!

[Haighus]

Hmmm. I think Chronus is fine to be added to an Excelsior in the same way he seems to be fine for the IA2 vehicles, although I don't think it would be that useful. BS6 is no better than BS5 for the twin-linked sponsons, although the Grav cannon will benefit, and that would make it even more lethal. Also means the vehicle won't be relying on the Rhino for it's BS increase. I think the biggest benefit though will be IWND and the ignoring Shaken and Stunned, which will keep the thing operating at full capacity. Stick a Master of the Forge in there and it will be a tough cookie to break.

Unfortunately, IA2 lists Fellblades as just Super Heavy Vehicle as their unit type, no mention of Tank, so Chronus can't actually go in one Would be epic though, as BS5 Quad lascannons would be brutal.

[LCS]

Put Chronus in a Terminus Ultra. For the lulz.

[Haighus]

That is actually an excellent idea... He can fix his own tank when it over-heats too...