Too much of a badly considered thing?

[Alaric]

It's all become rather sprawling. They really should consider some kind of 'Apocalypse' book, with all the formations inside. Maybe once a year, 'chapter approved' style?

People already say virtually everything ol Gdub does is a cash grab so this would be interesting to see happen and watch the reactions. Its a great idea btw.

[Houghten]

With the building, there are no hull points. The rulebook has rules for buildings, but it's basically like this: You shoot at the building, see if you hurt it, check a chart. The chart has various things like the weapon being destroyed, armor value being reduced, partial collapse, or full collapse (pretty much the only way to bring a building down). Buildings are tougher to take out than vehicles, usually.

You'll want to re-read page 110 of The Rules, because as of 7th Edition Buildings do have Hull Points; 3 for a Small Building, 4 for a Medium and 5 for a Large. (Also, they're typically easier to destroy than vehicles of equivalent AV because you only need a 6 on the Building Damage Table for a Total Collapse, whereas you need a 7 on the Vehicle Damage Table for an Explodes.)

Bedroom General's confusion comes from Stronghold Assault only specifying that the Vengeance Battery is an "Impassable Building" with, apparently, no size. Which was fine when Size only determined Transport Capacity, but it's been over a year since 7th dropped and they still haven't FAQ'd it!

When they eventually do, they might rule it as Medium and they might rule it as Small. It's about the same size as a Bunker, which is Medium despite being half the size of a Firestorm Redoubt, which is somehow also Medium. So... *shrug* who knows?

[40kGamer]

You see, it used to be that my friends and I could help each other out with rules, and other specifics of the game because we were all interested enough to read most codices and be across the majority of each others capabilities. I have become invested in this hobby over a lot of years and thoroughly enjoy the painting, hobby aspect. Of course thats not enough, or I'd just buy random models that I like. These would then become dust collectors on a shelf. I want more "bang for my buck" than that, so I chose to collect for a game I could play with my circle of friends.Thus my obsession began, because rules that allowed me to play in the wonderful grimdark background.

I've been playing since second edition. I remember that my friend and I played a big game once (1500pts or so) and we both ended up with headaches from the constant rules and calculations we had to do each turn. Second ed game mechanics were quite in depth. Well, I just had a battle two per side so 3000pts per team and ended up with the same sort of headache. This time it was not the depth of the rules, but rather the breadth. We all spent way too much time consulting books and various computers and pads and phones, Then finding relevant rules in the brb (which appears to have been written by a commitee that wasn't really talking to each other, or play testing much) that answered questions badly or not at all.

This reads almost like my path with 40k, just replace second edition with RT and played a big game once, with played a small game of 1500 points once.

Your experience trying to play in the current environment is not uncommon. The rules are not well organized nor are they really all that good. Not that the rules for 40k have ever been perfect.

Too much! I don't mind not being across someone elses rules but when you have people misremembering 'cos of the rate of codex change as well as all of the different codices and data slates and formations and etc etc... Well hopefully you can see my point. We are not professional gamers, all of us have real life concerns and the budget in terms of dollars and time is too tight to be able to know exactly what is going on in this game we have invested in.

I see regular players messing up their own rules at tournaments and in casual play. No one really knows what all the rules are anymore and you need a road map to find everything. They've scattered special rules and formations into every nook and cranny of print and digital medium to the point of stupidity. I would hate to be responsible for policing the rules at a tournament in 7th.

I felt a distinct lack of fun yesterday during the game. If anything can possibly drive me away from a hobby of over twenty years, it'll be when it stops being fun. I sincerely hope I don't get there, but I saw the possibility when our poor beleaguered 'Nid player, listening to three veterans still not knowing exactly what was going on, said with a plaintive wail "It's all too complicated!"

My group has quit playing 40k regularly. 6th/7th raised our concerns and the new speed of codex rewrites (under 2 years is stupid) coupled with rules scattered everywhere has finished everyone off. Your first sentence here sums things up nicely... 40k as it exists today is just not fun for us. Actually one of the games we are going to focus on this year is EPIC 40k. Since Game Workshop wants us to play EPIC we will, but not in 28mm scale with clunky disorganized rules.

[Fanboy]

Hi! After a long hiatus, I return to whinge upon this esteemed forum.

This will be a rant basically, but if you find it too long, basically I can't keep up, and I'm frustrated.

You see, it used to be that my friends and I could help each other out with rules, and other specifics of the game because we were all interested enough to read most codices and be across the majority of each others capabilities. I have become invested in this hobby over a lot of years and thoroughly enjoy the painting, hobby aspect. Of course thats not enough, or I'd just buy random models that I like. These would then become dust collectors on a shelf. I want more "bang for my buck" than that, so I chose to collect for a game I could play with my circle of friends.Thus my obsession began, because rules that allowed me to play in the wonderful grimdark background.

I've been playing since second edition. I remember that my friend and I played a big game once (1500pts or so) and we both ended up with headaches from the constant rules and calculations we had to do each turn. Second ed game mechanics were quite in depth. Well, I just had a battle two per side so 3000pts per team and ended up with the same sort of headache. This time it was not the depth of the rules, but rather the breadth. We all spent way too much time consulting books and various computers and pads and phones, Then finding relevant rules in the brb (which appears to have been written by a commitee that wasn't really talking to each other, or play testing much) that answered questions badly or not at all.

Too much! I don't mind not being across someone elses rules but when you have people misremembering 'cos of the rate of codex change as well as all of the different codices and data slates and formations and etc etc... Well hopefully you can see my point. We are not professional gamers, all of us have real life concerns and the budget in terms of dollars and time is too tight to be able to know exactly what is going on in this game we have invested in.

It didn't help that our 'nid player was just coming back into the game, she was put off by how complicated everything seemed to be. Looking through her eyes I am forced to agree. I like to play both competitively and "beer and pretzels" but I think the game is getting too unwieldy when you arent having fun, you're just trying to find relevant bits of rules from a myriad of sources. Games Workshop continue to amaze with models and confound with the effin' rules to play them, which as I said way back, was the reason I chose to collect their models in the first place. I shouldn't need a library and/or phd to play a game of toy soldiers.

I felt a distinct lack of fun yesterday during the game. If anything can possibly drive me away from a hobby of over twenty years, it'll be when it stops being fun. I sincerely hope I don't get there, but I saw the possibility when our poor beleaguered 'Nid player, listening to three veterans still not knowing exactly what was going on, said with a plaintive wail "It's all too complicated!"
Rant over.
Cheers guys.

+1

We just play 4th Ed now, with 5th Ed terrain rules (wysiwyg terrain). Too many changes, too quickly......and I agree with your comment, we all have normal lives and jobs to focus on as well.......... 8th 40k should be a 20page rule set (like 4th ed), with optional and advanced rules (bringing in all the 7th rules, formations, etc, etc). Thus the basic ruleset keep the game simple, and will allow new players to enter the game 'easily' and develop from there. The current rule set is just too tedious for any new player. Easier to spend money on a plug and play PC game than read that 240 odd page tome.......

[Mikhail233]

Buildings do have hull points now, there's a table, a medium building has 4, small building 3 and a large building 5

[Voltigeur]

I have a confession to make. I haven't read the brb cover to cover since fifth edition, I just skim it for anything that looks different than I remember from the previous edition. I used to be the guy in the group who knew all the rules and owned all the codexes, but the sixth edition Hardcovers and the short turnaround for codexes put an end to that pretty quick. I haven't bought a rulebook or codex since sixth edition dropped and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I have to say that the rules have gotten less important to me as I've grown older. Nowadays I judge a 40k game by how much fun we've had as opposed to who one and by how much. As long as the game was close and we both had a good time then who cares if we broke/forgot a rule or three. It helps that I only play with a group of close friends so I never have to play pickup games or tournaments. People who are forced to play those types of games for lack of their own group have my deepest sympathies.