Can AoS work with modifications?

[vonDietdrich]

Hm... I kind of like the "wounds on the board" system. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any units that are too terribly elite while also being low wounds - though, remember that I've only read the Lizardmen scroll in any detail, and even that not really a full deep read. You still probably want to limit the number of heroes, though.

Yeah but then you've got an equivalence between things like clan rats and white lions or executioners.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah but then you've got an equivalence between things like clan rats and white lions or executioners.

I haven't read the rules yet. Is that a problem?

Do you think you could easily go through the scrolls and categorize the one-wound models as "normal" and "elite"? Then you could just add the rule that only X% of your wounds on the table must be normal and only Y% can be elite.

[vonDietdrich]

Do you think you could easily go through the scrolls and categorize the one-wound models as "normal" and "elite"?

Yes, you probably could, but then that gets into the issue of summoning extra wounds onto the battlefield. If you're forced to take X amount of regular line infantry in the list-building phase, and your opponent is playing a summoning army who dynamically brings most of his models onto the board through spell-casting, you're now at a large disadvantage because the overall 'quality' of your wounds is substantially less.

The main problem with wounds as the device of comparison is the sheer amount of special rules and synergies. For example, a lot of unit entries have a 'To Summon This Unit Spell' where if you own the models, your wizards automatically know the appropriate spell to summon them and this lets you slap down a lot of units for potentially very little investment. Spells don't blow up anymore and each Wizard can attempt to cast each spell they know once per turn.

So in other words, if you're a Vampire Counts player and have three Wizards (not an uncommon situation for me in WFB 8th), you can attempt to summon Black Knights, Grave Guard, Skeletons, Zombies, Crypt Ghouls, Crypt Horrors, Varghulfs, Cairn Wraiths, Tomb Banshees, Spirit Hosts, Hexwraiths, Terrorgheists, Zombie Dragons, Vargheists, and.. I think that's it. Once per Wizard, per turn, until you run out of models to summon. If your opponent has a Wizard within 18" of your caster they can attempt to dispel it, but that's the only downside to rolling the dice (aside from ruining all your friendships).

In other words, I could easily take a 'small' army with a bunch of Wizard characters (Mortarch Mannfred, a couple nameless Vampire Lords and Necromancers) and some random filler models for meat shields, then proceed to make about 20 summoning rolls on my first turn and still get the benefits of Sudden Death for being 'outnumbered' when the curtains open up on the battle. It could even be argued that this is how the new Vampire Counts are designed to function, continually replacing their losses with a wave of fresh summoning rolls every turn. And I don't have to worry about my Necromancers randomly blowing up anymore to top it off.

So how do you comp that sort of thing against a 100-wound Empire, Orc and Goblin, or Skaven army that's mostly going to be lots of cannon fodder when the list is built using a 'normal troop' and 'elite' profile comparison method?

'Limit the Wizards' is the most obvious response, but then you're taking away the entire gimmick of the Vampire Counts as written into their faction design (which is that everyone who isn't skeletal cannon fodder is either a mage or else Konrad). If you limit the Wizards to just two, for example, then you're making Wizards who don't have monstrous mounts (and therefore a lot of wounds) dramatically less useful compared to a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon or a Mortarch. Why use your precious Wizard slots on guys with few wounds instead of Vampires riding big monsters with 14 wounds apiece?

And so on and so forth. Once you start comping Summoning factions by limiting their casters, then you also have to comp other factions so they can't stack their particular flavor of advantage to the point that it breaks the wound comp system and that's a slippery slope.

My point is, the unit rules were not designed with balance or comp in mind. Without some kind of precise point system, a 'general comp' can work for casual games but it won't be a one-size-fits-all experience. Is it possible to wrangle a "balanced" game out of the rules as they are? Maybe. But until more detailed rules are released, there's way too much grey area for my taste.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yes, you probably could...

Hm... good point. I think you're right - recreating a points system is probably the way to go.

[Jack Shrapnel]

Here is the listbuilding comp we have been testing and thus far it is working out well:

1 formation each plus 2 warscrolls

maximum wounds per warscroll is:

if a unit of one wound models has a regimental bonus, they can have up to 10 wounds over their maximum number for regimental bonus (ie: orc archers can be 30, goblins can be 40).

if a unit has no regimental bonus or has more than one wound / model the maximum wounds for the unit is 20.

Add ons to units count as part of the warscrolls (ie: crew with a cannon) - (we didn't have to use this with our armies this time)


It could easily be expanded to larger games by adding warscroll numbers to the limit above. Requiring a formation means that players are having to bring traditional core units to the table. Wound limits to units based upon regimental bonuses is simple to apply (the only outlier found thus far is ogres, which is why the wound restriction)

thus far simple and works. games have seemed quite fairly balanced between forces.

[harveydent]

So according to BigRed, some store is using the following (ridiculously convoluted) 'point' system:

Games are recommended to be played at 50 or greater points.
For every 25 counted wounds you may take:
- 4 Warscrolls
- 8 Wounds of models with the Hero keyword (only 60% can be spent on a single model, rounding up)
- 6 Wounds of models with the Monster keyword
- 6 Wounds of models with the Warmachine keyword (note that crew Wounds are stilled paid for, but they themselves do not typically have the Warmachine keyword)
- All models with 10 or more wounds must be from the same Compendium
Regardless of Wound Totals
- All named Heroes are 0-1 choices and may not be taken multiple times.
- All unnamed Heroes are 0-2 choices and may not be taken more than twice.
- Models with both the Hero and Monster keyword count against both allowances (and may therefore by limited in some games if only allowed by one of the two categories).
- When a model receives a Wound through an upgrade (for example Blight King Champion upgrade), the bonus is not counted towards your army’s total wounds.
- When a unit exceeds 10 models, receive 2 models for each one purchased with wounds.
i.e. a unit that begins at Five, 1-wound models, would cost 10 wounds total for a unit of 10, but only 15 wounds for a unit of 20 or 20 wounds for a unit of 30.

So I pose the question again:

Can't we just use the existing set of army books for point values? Can't we just use the rules that are already written and understood with the new rules system?

[Auticus]

With minor tweaks its actually quite fun.

The problem I'm seeing is that people of course want a universal game, not one that has to be house ruled or tweaked. Barring those people though, those that are willing to houserule can have a great time with it.