I asked and was answered.

[Auticus]

The biggest thing that I think happened is that this game uses methodologies from the late 80s in a modern era where people expect super serious tournament-style gaming.

[Al Shut]

I have to admit, whether or not people will manage to balance the game by themselves, making up their own units won't make it any worse

[40kGamer]

AoS is much cleaner than any other game GW have ever come out with, its clear and concise, yes, it expects people to do some socialising, but its to make it the game they want to make, a story driven experience over a competitive ruleset, GW have obviously not been happy with the growing competitive side of the game and have been trying to push it out for a long time now, competitiveness harms recruitment, many a child has left the hobby when humiliatingly battered by an overly competitive opponent.

By striping it of any pretense of balance and asking players to use it as a roleplaying exercise, they've done that. Why would you want to take the piss out of your opponent?

I can't understand what's so difficult to grasp about the idea of respecting your opponent and not playing the game just to beat them.

Competition isn't a bad thing but 'overly competitive' players do damage the community. I would think the way to control them would be clean, tight, difficult to exploit rules, but maybe that isn't practical. Maybe AoS will be the game that breaks the negative cycle of hyper competitiveness and bring people back to just playing for fun, time will tell... So far the only GW games that have gotten rid of the 'overly competitive', make the kids cry players are the unsupported ones like Epic. Actually now that traditional WFB is unsupported it may go back to being a fun game again as the competitive folks are drawn to current products.

I do have my doubts that AoS will go the way they want as 7th 40k has created a hyper competitive game environment that is so God awful I wouldn't play anyone outside of my closest circle of friends. And since we collectively liked 40k as a social game to be played at events and shops we've simply quit playing it altogether and went back to playing EPIC 40k. So now our gaming $ go to GW inspired products but end up with ebay sellers and proxy mini manufacturers. Not what we prefer to do but with GW not offering us anything that's all the choices we have.

[Path Walker]

I think it will, there is no fun to be had being hyper competitive in AoS and I think 40k, when played properly, is the same but too many people refuse to play it properly, with a clean break like with AoS, they have the chance to take it all the way, and thats what they've done.

Absolutely nothing wrong with hyper competitiveness if that's what you want, but its not what GW want and has never been and its not what 40k or WHFB were for.

[eosgreen]

im not sure what a store managers pov has to do with anything... im confused is this man important or does he not make 15/h and take orders from 10 ranks below anyone who actually knows anything

[40kGamer]

I think it will, there is no fun to be had being hyper competitive in AoS and I think 40k, when played properly, is the same but too many people refuse to play it properly, with a clean break like with AoS, they have the chance to take it all the way, and thats what they've done.

Absolutely nothing wrong with hyper competitiveness if that's what you want, but its not what GW want and has never been and its not what 40k or WHFB were for.

Have to agree, 40k and WFB were never good tournament style games. At one time GW was directly involved in creating the tournament scene before it evolved into what we see today. With 7th I just can't catch a casual game of 40k anymore as the local players are hardwired into the arms race. If I want to take a fun, fluffy or even somewhat silly list, I just know I'll be beaten off the table by turn 2 so there's just no longer a point to go play. Damn frustrating as the framework for a fun game is there but it falls flat in execution.

So AoS has definitely thrown everything out and may take the hyper competitive with it. If it does I'll be more willing to give it a proper go. One thing I wish they had done with the full rewrite is chuck the whole d6 system in favor of one based on d10's or such. Would have been a perfect opportunity to introduce a die size that allowed for more refined probabilities in the game. But I guess at some point they decided enough change was truly enough.

[Path Walker]

Have to agree, 40k and WFB were never good tournament style games. At one time GW was directly involved in creating the tournament scene before it evolved into what we see today. With 7th I just can't catch a casual game of 40k anymore as the local players are hardwired into the arms race. If I want to take a fun, fluffy or even somewhat silly list, I just know I'll be beaten off the table by turn 2 so there's just no longer a point to go play. Damn frustrating as the framework for a fun game is there but it falls flat in execution.

So AoS has definitely thrown everything out and may take the hyper competitive with it. If it does I'll be more willing to give it a proper go. One thing I wish they had done with the full rewrite is chuck the whole d6 system in favor of one based on d10's or such. Would have been a perfect opportunity to introduce a die size that allowed for more refined probabilities in the game. But I guess at some point they decided enough change was truly enough.

I'm sure d10s were discussed at some point in its creation (which has been going on for about 4-5 years as far as I know), but yeah, too much change too quickly. Kids know a d6 is a dice, they know how to roll it and how to read the numbers, its not a new concept for them to have to grasp along with everything else.

7th edition 40K really does have the potential to be an amazing game when played with the right people, i've never had a bad game of it and I've played quite a lot now, you just need the right mindset, they way we broke our local area out of being uber competitive was to organise a campaign, nothing complicated, made up a name, told people to register their forces with a cool fluffy name (encouraged by our examples) as with Imperial, Chaos or Xenos and let us know when they had a battle and what the outcome was, people wrote fluff themselves within hours, challenges were laid out, fun was had.

The system was left open, they could play any type of 40k against others in the group and it would all add to their sides score, no telling them who to play or what points.

Everyone got really in to it, like I said, they submitted fluff stories, art, everything, really turned the local 40k scene on its head.

[Al Shut]

I'm sure d10s were discussed at some point in its creation (which has been going on for about 4-5 years as far as I know), but yeah, too much change too quickly. Kids know a d6 is a dice, they know how to roll it and how to read the numbers, its not a new concept for them to have to grasp along with everything else.

I've met some dense people in my lifetime but not one of them would have been overchallenged by the concept of using a d10 instead of a d6. My guess is that more refined propabilities just aren't need in the new more simple approach to the game.

[40kGamer]

I'm sure d10s were discussed at some point in its creation (which has been going on for about 4-5 years as far as I know), but yeah, too much change too quickly. Kids know a d6 is a dice, they know how to roll it and how to read the numbers, its not a new concept for them to have to grasp along with everything else.

I can see that. I have to think this game was kicked about for a long time and it is interesting that they decided to step back to design concepts from decades ago. It feels very retro when you play it, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The streamlines units stats should make it a lot easier for those who wish to make an after market points scheme as well. And knowing GW, even if the rules fall a bit short the models we'll see in the next few months will be awesome. I'm sure I'll be picking some up whether I use these rules or not given that they offer such amazing multi-part kits.

7th edition 40K really does have the potential to be an amazing game when played with the right people, i've never had a bad game of it and I've played quite a lot now, you just need the right mindset, they way we broke our local area out of being uber competitive was to organise a campaign, nothing complicated, made up a name, told people to register their forces with a cool fluffy name (encouraged by our examples) as with Imperial, Chaos or Xenos and let us know when they had a battle and what the outcome was, people wrote fluff themselves within hours, challenges were laid out, fun was had.

The system was left open, they could play any type of 40k against others in the group and it would all add to their sides score, no telling them who to play or what points.

Everyone got really in to it, like I said, they submitted fluff stories, art, everything, really turned the local 40k scene on its head.

I can see the potential with 7th so that sounds like it's worth a go. I do know that Unbound 7th caused me to blow the dust off of a full Arbites army for a linked set of games with my mate that has a Cultist-centric army from back in Eye of Terror days. But holy cow, getting people in general to tone down their toys is one helluva an undertaking.

[Path Walker]

I've met some dense people in my lifetime but not one of them would have been overchallenged by the concept of using a d10 instead of a d6. My guess is that more refined propabilities just aren't need in the new more simple approach to the game.

Honestly, its about that first interaction with the game, most customers GW are interested in are utterly new to wargaming, there is a lot of new information and concepts to get hold of straight away, and anything that makes that first intro game easier, gives them something they know how to do, is worth sacrificing almost anything else for.

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I can see that. I have to think this game was kicked about for a long time and it is interesting that they decided to step back to design concepts from decades ago. It feels very retro when you play it, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. The streamlines units stats should make it a lot easier for those who wish to make an after market points scheme as well. And knowing GW, even if the rules fall a bit short the models we'll see in the next few months will be awesome. I'm sure I'll be picking some up whether I use these rules or not given that they offer such amazing multi-part kits.



I can see the potential with 7th so that sounds like it's worth a go. I do know that Unbound 7th caused me to blow the dust off of a full Arbites army for a linked set of games with my mate that has a Cultist-centric army from back in Eye of Terror days. But holy cow, getting people in general to tone down their toys is one helluva an undertaking.

I think just the idea that there was a different arena to play games in where they could try the things they want without fear of being humiliated on the table was enough, of course getting the first few people signed up to make up fun names for their armies and writing intros and stuff set a precedent which really helped.

Engaging with the community really works, most players probably don't want to play super competitive 40k but are stuck because if one player does, everyone else has to adapt or face humiliation, giving them a place to feel safe in more narrative style gaming is worth the effort in my opinion.