Why Does He Stay With Her?

[daboarder]

wow I read this thread and some of the posts man....

Do some of you actually read the background or just make up stuff to justify your argument on the fly?

we have written and acknowledged fordeworlds in the eye

We have traitor legions opperating AS traitor legions

We have Warbands with empires larger and more powerful than Ultramar

At the same time we have warbands that barely scrape by with limited supplies and poor equipment

But what we know unequivocally is that regardless of all this, the chaos legions are one fo the most dangerous threats to the imperium, likely surpassed only by the Tyranids, and we know that because GW spells it out in almost those EXACT words.

We are told that the Chaos legions have the power to topple the imperium, that means they do.

[Charon]

You don't seem to be grasping it.

Why do we work, here, in this day and age? To get money. Some people will work their *** off to stay afloat, barely, never achieving fame or fortune, never doing more than surviving. In fact, the vast majority of us will live like that, paycheck-to-paycheck, hand-to-mouth with some luxuries alongside that.

But we see the rich plastered all over the media. Oh, those guys. Clever or talented, look that lady won American Idol and became a millionairess in a few weeks! Look, this guy thought up this simple but ingenious invention, and now he's rolling in dosh! That's all it takes, guys, just impress the world and make one amazing movie/tv show/book series/game/invention/etc, etc. All it takes, just dig into that brain and keep working, keep working to get the cash to fund it, your big moment, your magnum opus and...

Oh I get it. Nobody is arguing that an imperial citizen who is on the bottom of things might be easily tempted as he may think he can't fall deeper anyways and he can only win by selling his soul.

The question is/was:

What makes a Space Marine, the pinnacle of humankind, the Rockstar of humanity look at a member of first claw and think:

"Oh boy look how they barely survive. I want that too!"

What makes a guy like Calgar, Lord of his own small empire look at a warband leader and think "Man, must be cool to join chaos"

These people are already on top. And if we buy that "erm... there are no big chaos empires it is all small warbands without supplies" there is NO BENEFIT to people who are on already on top.

And we also know that people who are on top of humankind are also tempted and often swayed by getting offered MORE. So cn we conclude that they actually get more and some of them are even able to run their empire like they did the last hundred years and make a big business supplying the small warbands that were not equally lucky?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Because not all Space Marines are Ultramarines. Some are gene-flawed, barely accepted by the Imperium. Some look at the power they have and want more, like Huron. Of course Calgar isn't going to fall, he has an empire and effectively a legion at his command.

But a smaller, more desperate chapter would be more likely. Maybe they've been fighting daemons for centuries, and like radical Inquisitors, start to ponder whether using the weapons of the enemy would be a good thing to do. Thus begins a steady fall into Chaos. Perhaps their Librarians were possessed unknowingly, and are slowly guiding the chapter to ruin from within. Perhaps they simply had f**ked up methods, and decided to go Renegade anyway because why are we serving these pathetic insects called, "Mankind?" A lot of Chapters have a callous-at-best attitude towards the average human, and many chapters have rituals that are pretty on the edge of heresy. Eating human remains springs to mind.

It doesn't take much to imagine why they might fall. In addition, empires like Huron's do have massive resources, far more than he had as the leader of a single Chapter. However, compared to the Imperium it ain't worth diddly, as the Imperium has a galaxy's worth of Forge Worlds and when you come strolling into realspace the army that wins the battle is the one packing the most men and firepower, which is what the Imperium has in abundance. So yes, they do have ample resources in the big empires, the large fragments of Legions and the like. But the majority of Chaos is made up of smaller warbands, who are the equivalent of those Space Marine Chapters who are so small and un-noteworthy that they can't even afford a few suits of Terminator armour, and have to carefully maintain a limited stock of weapons and men. The Lamenters spring to mind as a Loyalist version of this.

Plus there's moments like that High Lord who ordered several Chapters to attack the Eye of Terror on a penitent crusade, knowing that it'd corrupt them to Chaos long before they do anything of note.

[grimmas]

Most Space Marines don't just go traitor so they can worship the Chaos gods though, they rebel for also sorts of reasons, look how close the Space Wolves came and that certainly wasn't anything to do with worshiping chaos. Even in the Heresey only the Word Bearers turned to Worship Chaos, the others rebelled for other reasons, yep chaos sometimes gave them a push but it wasn't the reason.

The worship of chaos often comes later, usually as an act of desperation (like the Death Guard) it isn't that Chaos is necessarily the more attractive choice, it's simply the only choice for survival.

[Mr Mystery]

Because not all Space Marines are Ultramarines. Some are gene-flawed, barely accepted by the Imperium. Some look at the power they have and want more, like Huron. Of course Calgar isn't going to fall, he has an empire and effectively a legion at his command.

But a smaller, more desperate chapter would be more likely. Maybe they've been fighting daemons for centuries, and like radical Inquisitors, start to ponder whether using the weapons of the enemy would be a good thing to do. Thus begins a steady fall into Chaos. Perhaps their Librarians were possessed unknowingly, and are slowly guiding the chapter to ruin from within. Perhaps they simply had f**ked up methods, and decided to go Renegade anyway because why are we serving these pathetic insects called, "Mankind?" A lot of Chapters have a callous-at-best attitude towards the average human, and many chapters have rituals that are pretty on the edge of heresy. Eating human remains springs to mind.

It doesn't take much to imagine why they might fall. In addition, empires like Huron's do have massive resources, far more than he had as the leader of a single Chapter. However, compared to the Imperium it ain't worth diddly, as the Imperium has a galaxy's worth of Forge Worlds and when you come strolling into realspace the army that wins the battle is the one packing the most men and firepower, which is what the Imperium has in abundance. So yes, they do have ample resources in the big empires, the large fragments of Legions and the like. But the majority of Chaos is made up of smaller warbands, who are the equivalent of those Space Marine Chapters who are so small and un-noteworthy that they can't even afford a few suits of Terminator armour, and have to carefully maintain a limited stock of weapons and men. The Lamenters spring to mind as a Loyalist version of this.

Plus there's moments like that High Lord who ordered several Chapters to attack the Eye of Terror on a penitent crusade, knowing that it'd corrupt them to Chaos long before they do anything of note.

Yup.

And it's how you requisition your kit.

Adeptus Astartes? Rock up to the local Forgeworld, and pretty much just collect whatever you require that your Techmarines can't produce or maintain themselves. And that would easily include relic stuff you've salvaged from a random battlefield.

Chaos? Weeeellllll......really not so easy. You have far more limited Forgeworlds to pick from, and then you have to negotiate/successfully threaten/barter for whatever it is you'd need. And that will come with a pretty price attached. After that? You have to hope they've not backstabbed/betrayed you, and there's not bigger boys lurking around ready to, ah....requisition and liberate your shiney new gear. Lost a lot of warriors? Well thankfully here you're OK for recruits, as you have Cultists and whatnot. But the actual implantation/gestation and training? Oh Gods.....I don't want to have to deal with Fabius Bile. Not after the last time. If I wanted my new recruits to have three arses, you'd think I'd have asked....

And there's the difference. The Imperium (largely) works along the lines of co-operation for mutual benefit. Chaos? Everyone....everyone is looking out for number one first and foremost.

[Denzark]

Again, well written, but ignores the elephant in the room that I have brought up the last 2 times this came up. Logistics. It's how wars are won. Let me go through a few things again.

1. ATSKNF. HH novels repeatedly mention how this is hardwired into marines. They are physically incapable of fearing almost anything except Primarchs. It is in their (male only) geneseed. Whilst I can see how being subverted by Chaos would potentially undo this psycho conditioning, there is no reason why VOTLW would not have something. World Eaters, Emp Children, DG and 1Ks are all fearless... what are we saying if you totally subvert you are fearless but renegades/traitors - you're not evil enough? You are quasi-evil? You are the diet coke of evil?

2. Bolters. CSM especially VOTLW are peerless masters of warfare. Peerless masters of warfare do not select a weapon system that they cannot reliably re-supply. What is their No1. Weapon system? Bolt weapons. Suffice to say some may fire bolts and some may fire magic bogies but sure as shizzle, war masters do not use bolters if they can't keep them ammo'd up. Pure logistics.

3. On Structure and hierarchy. Again, the Gaunt's Ghost novel with the traitor general describes in detail, whilst the traitors are trying to indoctrinate the general, that they have a society. With infrastructure. With heavy industry. With captured forges. Admittedly some traitors just kill maim burn or render an entire world down into a Slaanesh swingers party deluxe. But not all. Some are ostensibly rational in outlook. It is first order analysis only to claim all traitors are ragged warbands cos there is considerable evidence that this is not true all the time.

4. On restrictions. Chaos has none. Not in the way the munitorum and the Admech and the ecclesiarchy constrain imperial freedom of manoeuvre. Sometimes this is a benefit.


So again, I have shown, at times with source evidence (can't be arsed to trawl the specific books for pages), that to keep calling Chaos a raggedy worzel gummidge band is superficial. If you think the Dark Mech ability to hack the Noosphere of Mars just went away you are slightly deluded.

For this to be continuously peddled by Yorkie and other (non-chaos) players is an awesome piece of Inquisition propaganda and agent provocateurism. I therefore expect he is actually Alpha Legion - with fully functioning storm bolters, razor backs and assault cannons of course.

[benn grimm]

You're good.) Another great mind-blast from Mr Necromancer, cheered me up immensely, nice article. Anyway, I think between you Coffee Grunt, ADB you have it pretty much down to a tee. And I'm chaos all the way.

Ive always thought of the Chaos Gods as being like massive ponderous yet predatory sea creatures, Leviathans of the warp, slowly swimming along, great vast gestalt consciousnesses formed of emotion and psychic torment, utterly unfathomable, sucking up all the psychic bile. They are as distantly removed from us as plankton are from wales, it is the daemons which make up a god which have all the personality and offer the link a man needs to 'commune with the gods'. So when you talk to the gods, you really talk to daemons, who lie and have their own motivations.

As for the legions, some fight still at a strength as great or greater than that they had during the time of the heresy (Wordbearers), but on the whole the traitor legions are broken and scattered. Fresh renegades will have it even harder, the Soul Drinker series I thought was really good at showing what happens when a chapter goes renegade, basically it doesn't last long as anything much resembling a chapter of space marines, regardless of chaos worship or not. Loyal Astartes need a lot of up-keep...

[40kGamer]

Because not all Space Marines are Ultramarines. Some are gene-flawed, barely accepted by the Imperium. Some look at the power they have and want more, like Huron. Of course Calgar isn't going to fall, he has an empire and effectively a legion at his command.

If Horus can fall at the height of his power I'd say anyone outside of the Emperor has the potential to fall, and as Grimmas mentioned, it could be for any number of reasons that a chapter initially starts down a the road that may lead to Chaos.

[Denzark]

They are as distantly removed from us as plankton are from wales, it is the daemons which make up a god which have all the personality and offer the link a man needs to 'commune with the gods'. So when you talk to the gods, you really talk to daemons, who lie and have their own motivations.

How far is plankton from Wales, is it in Northumberland or Cumbria, I forget?

[Mr Mystery]

If Horus can fall at the height of his power I'd say anyone outside of the Emperor has the potential to fall, and as Grimmas mentioned, it could be for any number of reasons that a chapter initially starts down a the road that may lead to Chaos.

To be fair to Horus, we wasn't exactly seduced. Was a good deal more forceful than that, and included an incredibly near death experience via DaemonSword....

I've avoided the obvious word here, because we're discussing toy soldiers, and it doesn't do go trivialise serious things.