Why Does He Stay With Her?

[Charon]

edit: On another note Charon, some chaos warbands absolutely carry around their own hordes of cultists, wordbearers and alpha legion being the most obvious, but theres also the crimson slaughter and like the black legion of iron warriors

That is "Traitor guard" in most cases. Not the typical coal miner turned devout follower of Khorne.
We see 3 groups most of the time: Cultists (that is civillians), Traitors (that is PDF, former guard, merchenaries,..) and Slaves ("Chapter servs", ex-navy, workforce,...).
They all serve Chaos in one way or another but they are different. Sometimes it is hard to tell them apart.

Take Gaunts Ghosts as an example.
The Bloodpact. Cultists or trained Soliders? Would you pick an IA army list to portrait them or CSM Cultists?
Sons of Sec? Then you have the people of Ferrozoica.

[daboarder]

read the owrd bearer books or even the black legion background, it makes specific mention to hordes ove cultists serving under the direction of both legions, and being transported around the place by them

[Fueldrop]

While the actions of chaos are actually fairly simple in 3/4 cases, the chaos gods work on a scale and timetable that is nearly incomprehensible to us at a glance.

For example: Khorne doesn't have complex motivations or devious methods. He wants stuff to die in battle. Giving his followers weapons, ammunition, sustainance... it's all means to the end of getting them onto battlefield after battlefield to keep killing until they die. If they're really good at it, they might get resurrected so they can go out and kill more. If not... Khorne cares not from where the blood flows.

Tzeentch is the one that bucks the trend... kinda. His actions are probably the most "Random" from the perspective of an observer. In fact everything he does forwards his plans. Even if it's directly counterproductive to the thing he last did, it's just because he's furthering a different scheme at the cost of the first one.

[grimmas]

In the context of GW, Chaos stands for change though what ever reason unending and often violent change, order stands for permanence and lack of change (look how the imperium views innovation). I know they "borrowed" this from elsewhere but it still the same. It very much not good vs evil.

Worshiping chaos is very much an abusive relationship, it makes people become pawns in another's games and traps (either physically or mentally) them by making them reliant on that relationship. Even the ultimate reward from chaos is merely to become a more powerful slave.

[Kirsten]

Why do you always insist that Chaos is random?
Chaos is just a name. And SOME actions SEEM random to mortals. But they are not. They are not more random than a DE raid capturing a single prisoner who is not even of any status and disappear again.


They do not serve Chaos. It is fun that you use the Nightlords because they do not worship chaos. Why not use the Corsairs as reference? They have plenty... but I know... it destroys the argument.
But THEY actually serve Chaos.
Also despite their shortcomings in supply, a few of them are a lethal thread to full loyalist squads. They also still use their "Legion tactics" und are outnumbered and outgunned most of the time but still survive and kill.




Chaos is not random.



And because the traitors are committed to not die at all they happily challenge a Wraithlord in heroic hand to hand combat... because... of reasons.



Cultists are usually not bound to CSM at all. They do not "throw" cultists at anyone because they do not have some. They get "their" cultists if they happen to raid a planet with an active cult on it or provide a cult beforehand (mostly Alpha Legion and Word Bearers) but they do not fly them around in space on their ships.
Cultists are actually more related to Daemons than to CSM.

wow, so many problems with this.

yes, in fact chaos all too frequently is random. that is why their followers get mutations that are not necessarily useful. if you think they aren't random, then you have no idea whatsoever what chaos actually is, and I suggest you go read up.

I hate to break it to you, but Night Lords are chaos space marines. sure, plenty of them don't worship chaos, that doesn't alter the fact that they are short on stuff.

Not all chaos space marines will challenge a wraithlord, only the champions who are determined to catch the eye of the gods and ascend.

[Charon]

that is why their followers get mutations that are not necessarily useful.

Maybe they are to the gods, they just do not know yet?

that doesn't alter the fact that they are short on stuff.

And the corsairs are not. Why not go by this example? They run a vast space empire with so much supplies they even sell them. Would you argue "but in gaunts ghosts there is an imperial guard regiment without tanks therefore no imperial guard regiment should be allowed to have tanks"

Not all chaos space marines will challenge a wraithlord, only the champions who are determined to catch the eye of the gods and ascend.

Because you completely lose your new won sense of self-preservation as soon as you see an opportunity to get killed. Sure. Especially for those who went renegade and are not even marked.
So basically that champion does not want to die so he runs away at the first few casualties but gladly throws himself at the first imperial knight he encounters because... he has a death wish.
And as you mention the Night lords, what was Talos opinion on "ascending"?

So could you please try to consider more than one single warband which doesn't even worship chaos when we try to discuss the '"benefits" of worshipping chaos?

[Kirsten]

no, the fluff is quite specific on the fact that chaos does random thnigs just because.

what are you talking about guard tanks for?

it is not about getting killed, it is about a chance for glory, that is why they are the unit champion in most instances. sure some of those units might not actually be big on chaos worship, you might decide your army of chaos space marines don't. that is fine. but that is not in the rules. if you want to house rule removing the requirement to challenge, and the eye of the gods stuff for your army, then by all means do so.

how about you actually stick to a point? I used Night Lords because those novels are a perfect example of what Yorkie is talking about. Sure, some warbands will do well for themselves, plenty wont. that is the problem with having a bunch of renegades, they don't have the infrastructure. Yorkie is entirely correct in his article. I don't need to consider more than a single warband, I was providing an example of what he was saying. all you have done is argue, rather than make any sort of argument.

[Charon]

no, the fluff is quite specific on the fact that chaos does random thnigs just because.

Except that it is not while it is quite specific about how mortals can not comprehend Chaos and it SEEMS random to them.

you might decide your army of chaos space marines don't.

no, I may not as it is in the rules. Unless braking rules to your advantage is an option.

that is the problem with having a bunch of renegades, they don't have the infrastructure. Yorkie is entirely correct in his article. I don't need to consider more than a single warband, I was providing an example of what he was saying. all you have done is argue, rather than make any sort of argument.

There are plenty of examples of renegades with vast infrastructure. The whole Gaunts Ghosts is about attacking a vast chaos empire. Yes, small warbands do not fare well, but the whole premise is like looking at greece and jump to "See, Europe is totally broke".

Also, like in his previous articles, he completely ignores every sourcebook or BL book that says otherwise and concentrates on the few that reinforce his opinion.

Like here:

Apart from when it is, I suppose… And the fact that some writers use it as that? I think that’s a problem.

Just because he personally doesn' like that part. That makes an opinion but not a fact.
Also his understanding how reality and chaos interact in 40k is flawed. No matter how super mighty the choas gody may be and no matter how much they can provide they do need a link, a node or anything. Khorne can't just manifest himself on terra and kill them all. He is a god and he CAN NOT DO THIS. He actually lacks POWER to do so.
See how even lesser daemons struggle to stay in reality? It is even harder for the bigger ones and IMPOSSIBLE for a chaos god. They NEED mortals.
It is not that chaos cares because it is like your mum, chaos cares because it NEEDS it followers.
They did not corrupt Horus because it will be fun, they corrupted him because "oh **** if the emperor succeeds we will be wiped out!" and they did not drop Horus at the end because "well, red bird sitting on a blue cat on a green night underwater" but because if Horus was victorious they would also have been wiped out.

Chaos is a lot more complex than "lol random". The whole "Sea of Souls" metaphor is about this as the Sea was to early (and later) seafaring cultures just "random" and "unpredictable"

[Mr Mystery]

I don't think it is more complex....

The Chaos Gods mean every single reward as an actual reward. They just don't really care if you become a Daemon Prince, or a Vibrating Bum-Faced Goat as a result.

At the very real risk of trivialising a not at all light hearted condition, and for which I will apologise in advance, think god like autism. They gain power from worship and acts dedicated to them (largely one and the same), and seek only to increase their number of supplicants. One supplicant does an almighty act which empowers their deity...deity 'rewards' them with the mind of a slug, the body of a chicken, and all the charm and charisma of an amoeba. Doesn't matter to the Gods. It's not that they don't care, so much as they're incapable of truly giving two hoots about you.

Take Abaddon. Blessed by all the Gods, but never, ever going to become a Daemon Prince, because they tried that once, and Belakor was the result.... And they can't control Belakor, because it needs all four of them...and they see advantage in coaxing Belakor to go and mess with the plans of the other Gods.

The Warp is anarchy. No rules, no reason. The Gods themselves are dark reflections of mortal emotions - so if a mortal cannot comprehend it, the reflective God can't either.

[daboarder]

The Chaos Gods mean every single reward as an actual reward. They just don't really care if you become a Daemon Prince, or a Vibrating Bum-Faced Goat as a result.

man the chaos gods dont give gifts as rewards, they do it solely to further their OWN goals. If that purpose is fueled by you being a spawn then pop goes the weasel. no real reward in it