Why Does He Stay With Her?

[CoffeeGrunt]

So what is the "reward" in this? Any loyal space marine joining chaos is actually downgrading himself in every single aspect. That alone could be a hint that there has to be some more to it than "lack of supplies".

Freedom from a doomed existence, the chance to gain life unending.

Many humans have lived and died to chase that dream, its allure is so entrenched in our culture that you could argue everything we do in some way pushes towards it. Every life-saving machine or vaccine, every improvement to medical technology. If an eldritch being appeared in the midst of a ceremony and told you all that by doing their will and pleasing their God, you too could become an immortal being of eldritch power like them, then of course they would sucker in hordes of the unwashed masses that make up the Imperium.

Space Marines in particular? Theirs' is a doomed existence. Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle. Some of them decide this is bogus, some of them are from flawed gene stock, some of them are victims of fate that drive them to Chaos regardless of their actions, (like the Thousand Sons.)

For example, the Flesh Tearers might be declared Excommunicate Traitoris because of their bloodthirsty gene-flaws. While some might decide to continue to fight in the Emperor's name to maybe one day prove their worth and achieve salvation, it would be likely that some would decide that as the Imperium sees them as traitors anyway, they might as well get something out of it...

[Charon]

Freedom from a doomed existence, the chance to gain life unending.

Didn't we just state that a servant of the dark gods is in fact a slave? And even the daemon prince is nothing more than a slave?
No freedom here. Not at all.

Space Marines in particular? Theirs' is a doomed existence. Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle. Some of them decide this is bogus, some of them are from flawed gene stock, some of them are victims of fate that drive them to Chaos regardless of their actions, (like the Thousand Sons.)

But hat is their gain out of this? If the Space Marines life is a doomed existence because "Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle." What do they GAIN from becoming a Chaos Space marine whos live is a doomed existence because "Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle." stays EXACTLY the same and you add in "you do not even get proper equipment anymore".

For example, the Flesh Tearers might be declared Excommunicate Traitoris because of their bloodthirsty gene-flaws. While some might decide to continue to fight in the Emperor's name to maybe one day prove their worth and achieve salvation, it would be likely that some would decide that as the Imperium sees them as traitors anyway, they might as well get something out of it...

And WHAT do they get out of it. I mean after they lost all their wargear and stuff because they are chaos now. They still fight, they still die. But now without proper equipment.

[Mr Mystery]

Because it's all a massive conspiracy against you?

[YorkNecromancer]

So then. What is their advantage over their loyalist counterparts who do have supplies, are all knowing badasses and super powerful who can fight fantastically at all times and have always full magazines of ammunition.

God.

You've never been desperate a day in your life, have you?

Speaking as someone who has been homeless, someone who has spent an unpleasant amount of time sofa-surfing, someone who's lived on some fairly bloody awful council estates because he couldn't afford more, I can tell you now, when you're down, the temptation to do anything to improve your lot is immense. I never did... But that was only because I was lucky enough to have some true friends.

Not everyone gets that.

What's the advantage? The fact you've got to ask shows just how clueless you are.

As for why did the original Legions fall? Why did Horus, when he had everything? The same reason that Arab sheik broke down in tears when he was moved down the list from fourth richest man on Earth to fifth. Because when you're on top, you think differently: you don't see what you have to gain, only what you stand to lose. Because money and power isn't just how the elite keep control, it's how they keep score. Because no matter how big the bucket, you can't empty a bath with it if there's a hole in the bottom.

In short, because they were insecure, Horus more than any of them. They were scared, and afraid, and damaged, and Chaos takes advantage of that. You see it in every religious cult the world over. Look up [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_bombing]'lovebombing'[/url], educate yourself a little.

[Mr Mystery]

Lets also revisit the Superman analogy.

He's all powerful. He's unstoppable. Yet at no point in the main canon has he ever chosen to impose his benevolent rule. Why?

With Space Marines, you have the same question. There's not much could stop a Chapter, or even a Squad from installing itself as 'benevolent dictator' of a planet type thing. But they don't, because of psycho-indoctrination. It's drummed into them that they are humanity's protectors, not their rulers. Yet we have abundant evidence of that indoctrination lapsing, or being otherwise broken. Space Wolves in particular are dangerously close, having clashed with the Inquisition on numerous occasions. They can quite often do it with the best of intentions. Except, the majority of Astartes are not statesman. They are however all merciless killers. Downward spiral starts there.

Chaos may have nothing to do with the start of that fall, but you can bet they'll be happy to exploit it.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Didn't we just state that a servant of the dark gods is in fact a slave? And even the daemon prince is nothing more than a slave? No freedom here. Not at all.

But hat is their gain out of this? If the Space Marines life is a doomed existence because "Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle." What do they GAIN from becoming a Chaos Space marine whos live is a doomed existence because "Functionally immortal yet will always die in battle." stays EXACTLY the same and you add in "you do not even get proper equipment anymore".

And WHAT do they get out of it. I mean after they lost all their wargear and stuff because they are chaos now. They still fight, they still die. But now without proper equipment.

As Yorkie said, if your situation is desperate enough you will cling to anything.

The Ruinous Powers tempt in a hundred, thousand different ways. They'll find your weakness and open that baby up, they'll make you dance on their strings just so you can cover or remove that weakness or turn it into a strength. Horus wanted power and they promised him it. They took his soul and gave him unimaginable power, the ability to crush a galaxy-spanning empire at the peak of its strength.

But Magnus? Magnus was led to underestimate Tzeentch. He was adamant he had agency and mastery of his fate, but ultimately Tzeentch's vastly superior intellect knew and understood Magnus, knew the choices he would make, and what it would take to tempt him. Appeal to his ego, grant him great power, freeze the clock on the Flesh Change. Tzeentch knew that Magnus was egotistical and arrogant enough to go do exactly as he wanted him to, provided he approached Magnus as a lesser daemon to be mastered, rather than a vastly superior mind Magnus still cannot comprehend. That right there. Magnus, one of the Primarchs, apex of the human race, with ten thousand years of immortal time and an unmatched intellect and education, cannot understand Tzeentch.

It's suggested even that Fateweaver, Tzeentch's own right-hand Daemon, is trying to subvert Tzeentch and guide him down the wrong path after Tzeentch threw him into the deepest pit of the Warp to ply the future. His followers are bought and discarded whenever his long plan demands it, and while you feel your role is to conquer worlds in his name, Tzeentch knows he'll take you right to the penultimate battle, and abandon you and your forces to die, because in defeating you the Imperium reclaims the territory, and a certain person will stumble upon a Chaos relic that might sway them, allowing him to corrupt the entire army that slew you in their turn. Thus Change cycles anew.

As far as Khorne? Blood must flow. Bloodletters and World Eaters would quite happily rip each other to shreds once their mutual enemy is slain, because the blood must flow. It must always flow.

Slaanesh? Who cares who's being maimed, tortured or pleased, so long as it keeps going. Their soldiers are twitching, frothing addicts to their senses, needing that next hit, no matter where or what feeds it.

So, you ask, why do people go into it? For the same reason people scoff at the homeless and keep running in the rat race we live in today. A Chaos Marine looks at the bloodthirsty Khorne marine, the ensnared Tzeentch cultist, the Slaaneshi sense-addict or the Nurgle bag of pus, and thinks:

"It'll never happen to me. My will is too strong, I'll make the Gods serve me!"

Yet each of them makes pacts, and steadily is tricked into surrendering their souls and becoming those people. Some do it gladly, some might not.

Yet, the only person to make that claim and succeed with it, is Abbadon. Abbadon isn't owned by a God, he owns them all. None of them lays claim to his soul, but they lavish him with power and riches. If the Gods are cruel lovers who abuse their followers, then Abaddon is the one who learned to turn that tactic back on them. He leads them on, accepts their gifts, and stays with them only as long as necessary to get what he wants while their objectives align.

And he's an example of what Chaos could do, if you were only strong enough to bend it to your will.

And of course you're strong enough...

...Right?

[YorkNecromancer]

As Yorkie said, if your situation is desperate enough you will cling to anything.

The Ruinous Powers tempt in a hundred, thousand different ways. They'll find your weakness and open that baby up, they'll make you dance on their strings just so you can cover or remove that weakness or turn it into a strength. Horus wanted power and they promised him it. They took his soul and gave him unimaginable power, the ability to crush a galaxy-spanning empire at the peak of its strength.

But Magnus? Magnus was led to underestimate Tzeentch. He was adamant he had agency and mastery of his fate, but ultimately Tzeentch's vastly superior intellect knew and understood Magnus, knew the choices he would make, and what it would take to tempt him. Appeal to his ego, grant him great power, freeze the clock on the Flesh Change. Tzeentch knew that Magnus was egotistical and arrogant enough to go do exactly as he wanted him to, provided he approached Magnus as a lesser daemon to be mastered, rather than a vastly superior mind Magnus still cannot comprehend. That right there. Magnus, one of the Primarchs, apex of the human race, with ten thousand years of immortal time and an unmatched intellect and education, cannot understand Tzeentch.

It's suggested even that Fateweaver, Tzeentch's own right-hand Daemon, is trying to subvert Tzeentch and guide him down the wrong path after Tzeentch threw him into the deepest pit of the Warp to ply the future. His followers are bought and discarded whenever his long plan demands it, and while you feel your role is to conquer worlds in his name, Tzeentch knows he'll take you right to the penultimate battle, and abandon you and your forces to die, because in defeating you the Imperium reclaims the territory, and a certain person will stumble upon a Chaos relic that might sway them, allowing him to corrupt the entire army that slew you in their turn. Thus Change cycles anew.

As far as Khorne? Blood must flow. Bloodletters and World Eaters would quite happily rip each other to shreds once their mutual enemy is slain, because the blood must flow. It must always flow.

Slaanesh? Who cares who's being maimed, tortured or pleased, so long as it keeps going. Their soldiers are twitching, frothing addicts to their senses, needing that next hit, no matter where or what feeds it.

So, you ask, why do people go into it? For the same reason people scoff at the homeless and keep running in the rat race we live in today. A Chaos Marine looks at the bloodthirsty Khorne marine, the ensnared Tzeentch cultist, the Slaaneshi sense-addict or the Nurgle bag of pus, and thinks:

"It'll never happen to me. My will is too strong, I'll make the Gods serve me!"

Yet each of them makes pacts, and steadily is tricked into surrendering their souls and becoming those people. Some do it gladly, some might not.

Yet, the only person to make that claim and succeed with it, is Abbadon. Abbadon isn't owned by a God, he owns them all. None of them lays claim to his soul, but they lavish him with power and riches. If the Gods are cruel lovers who abuse their followers, then Abaddon is the one who learned to turn that tactic back on them. He leads them on, accepts their gifts, and stays with them only as long as necessary to get what he wants while their objectives align.

And he's an example of what Chaos could do, if you were only strong enough to bend it to your will.

And of course you're strong enough...

...Right?

^ All the this.

[Charon]

As Yorkie said, if your situation is desperate enough you will cling to anything.

IF your situation was desperate to begin with. Which is not true for all renegades.

The Ruinous Powers tempt in a hundred, thousand different ways. They'll find your weakness and open that baby up, they'll make you dance on their strings just so you can cover or remove that weakness or turn it into a strength. Horus wanted power and they promised him it. They took his soul and gave him unimaginable power, the ability to crush a galaxy-spanning empire at the peak of its strength.

See that is a benefit we can work with. Now how is that translated into the game? Because the whole "short on supply" thing is translated. You do not get any cool gear because it requires maintenance.
Fine with that. So what happens to the "desperate" Raven Guard Marine when he becomes an Ex-Raven Guard Chaos Space Marine? Any new powers? Nope. But he is short in supply now. And he forgot how to Ravenguard. And... his equipment didnt make it to the eye of terror.

But Magnus? Magnus was led to underestimate Tzeentch. He was adamant he had agency and mastery of his fate, but ultimately Tzeentch's vastly superior intellect knew and understood Magnus, knew the choices he would make, and what it would take to tempt him. Appeal to his ego, grant him great power, freeze the clock on the Flesh Change. Tzeentch knew that Magnus was egotistical and arrogant enough to go do exactly as he wanted him to, provided he approached Magnus as a lesser daemon to be mastered, rather than a vastly superior mind Magnus still cannot comprehend. That right there. Magnus, one of the Primarchs, apex of the human race, with ten thousand years of immortal time and an unmatched intellect and education, cannot understand Tzeentch.

So.. chaos still provided them a new Planet and great power. What about that Mentor Legion Librarian turned to Tzeentch? Same like the Raven Guard marine. No powers, short in supply and he (as a follower of Tzeentch) even forgot how to predict the future.

It's suggested even that Fateweaver, Tzeentch's own right-hand Daemon, is trying to subvert Tzeentch and guide him down the wrong path after Tzeentch threw him into the deepest pit of the Warp to ply the future. His followers are bought and discarded whenever his long plan demands it, and while you feel your role is to conquer worlds in his name, Tzeentch knows he'll take you right to the penultimate battle, and abandon you and your forces to die, because in defeating you the Imperium reclaims the territory, and a certain person will stumble upon a Chaos relic that might sway them, allowing him to corrupt the entire army that slew you in their turn. Thus Change cycles anew.

which is plans inside of plans... and not random.

A Chaos Marine looks at the bloodthirsty Khorne marine, the ensnared Tzeentch cultist, the Slaaneshi sense-addict or the Nurgle bag of pus, and thinks:

"It'll never happen to me. My will is too strong, I'll make the Gods serve me!"

and what makes the loyal Space Marine look at the Chaos Space Marine (who is like his poor and untalented cousin) and think "Man that is exactly what I want!" ?

Yet each of them makes pacts, and steadily is tricked into surrendering their souls and becoming those people. Some do it gladly, some might not.

They gain benefits out of these pacts. Which is not reflected - only the lack of supplies is.


The problem with all that is if we do not think "Chaos provides" what makes Chaos Marines an actual threat to humanity?
You all seem to like the rag-tag first Claw from ADB. Is that warband ANY threat to the imperium at all? Even when 3 of them take out an entire Blood Anges squad (which will never ever happen in the tabletop because... chaos is short in supply and beeing a space vampire is superior to beeing a thousand years old veteran with bad equipment and no chaos benefits whatsoever) and their single warship nearly wipes out a loyal chapter by stealing their geneseed this is still no threat to the gigantic moloch of the imperium.

So at the end you play an army of complete morons wich traded their souls away for a lack of supplies.

Because at the end of the day the question is: How do Chaos Space Marines sustain themselves. Everyone is short on supply and Chaos doesnt provide. We love to cite ADBs Nightlords so we learned that every raid does cost more in blood and gear that it actually gets in. And we have permanent infighting.
So either the concept is flawed, there are no Chaos space Marines anymore and they are only imperial propaganda because after 10k years they would have died out at that rate or me must assume that Chaos does indeed provide.

[40kGamer]

One can make the argument that Chaos Marines in general are ill supplied, although there are indications in the fluff that chapters like the Iron Warriors have quite the organization and supply chain behind them. What drives me nuts is that Chaos Marines are often 'the original genetic stock from the great crusade with slight buffs from the warp' yet on the tabletop they are lucky to even go toe to toe with what should be modern day watered down loyalists. Maybe it's a design concept that is too hard to realize in action but it's a bit off putting when trying to field them.

[grimmas]

Read Talon of Horus folks it explains exactly what is going on with the Traitor Legions.

Also Chaos is unbelievably hierarchical that's the point it 'salways just one small step to more power that's how it works. It's how the gods motivate and control their followers. Of course it's ultimately all just a lie as all but the gods are slaves, but it's really all a matter of perspective really if you're going to be a slave you might as well be the most powerful one. It's not just the mortals either the daemons are the same look at the recent article on the ranks of Bloodthirsters. The hierarchies are constantly changing as would only be right with Chaos but they exist and are fundamental to how Chaos works.