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  1. #1

    Default Five rules you may not have notice or misread.

    DISCLAIMER I am not a competitive gamer, I have never entered a competitive tournament and I play for fun and for background. While my after thought may be my own opinion this is not to cause a flame war or a reason to insult other players. Fun is subjective and many in fantasy got fun from playing it competitively; that is all.

    On the opening day of Age of Sigmar, my friends and I played a total of ten games; four of which were using the models provided in the starter set whilst the other six games where using our own models. Of the six games we played two had no restrictions whilst the other four we restricted to thirty wounds each. Through out games we came across things we'd either missed or automatically assumed with the same across the board. In no particular order here are five rules you may not have notice or misread.

    1 - You stop when you feel like it.

    Set-Up - third paragraph
    "You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space. This is your army."

    This one is probably what people may have noticed but not taken into heart exactly what this entails. Usually (especially with our ten games) we informed our opponents on what we were taking; a common courtesy but one that isn't enforced. If players played by how the rules were written this would happen.

    So the first player (the one who got to choose the board side) deploys his first unit, say a Giant. The second player seeing that there is a giant reaches into his army case and pulls out an Empire Cannon and upon seeing a cannon the first player them pulls out a Flamespyre Phoenix.

    This will continue in a form of cat and mouse play until one play feels he has enough models on the table. But what happens if one of these two opponents is a fifteen year veteran with a buck load of different models from different factions? The player with the smallest collection could be out-countered with every unit deployment. To my knowledge both 40K and fantasy have always had players agreeing to certain terms (I.E points limit) before writing their list but now you don't have limits or lists; you just bring what you want to the table and other then refusing to play your opponent will have no say in the matter.

    2 - Your general can be anyone.

    Now this was something we didn't notice in our games but afterward when reading, discussing and lamenting on the previous battles.

    The General
    "Once you have finished setting up all of your units, nominate one of the models you set up as your general. Your general has a command ability, as described in the rules for the hero phase opposite"

    This means your general can be any model in your army not just those who were once allocated to the Lord and Hero slots. This means my Warriors of Chaos could if I liked be commanded by a Slaughterbrute or Warrior amongst my unit of thirty Warriors of Chaos; Hell I could have a single famous familiar as my general. This means you could grant the inspiring presence command ability to a unit, however this would sacrifice your other command abilities in your army. This brings me up to my next rule

    3 - Only your general has command abilities.

    The General
    "Once you have finished setting up all of your units, nominate one of the models you set up as your general. Your general has a command ability, as described in the rules for the hero phase opposite"

    Command Ability
    "In your hero phase, your general can use on command ability. All generals have the Inspiring Presence command ability, and some may have more on their warscroll."

    One of the cleaner cut of the rules, this means that only the General can use command abilities. So all those heroes you may have taken with command abilities hoping to use them to boost your forces was for nothing as there can only be one general; so choose wisely.

    4 - You can shoot all the time.

    Shooting
    "In your shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with missile weapons."

    "Pick one of your units. You may not pick a unit that ran or retreated this turn. Each model in the unit attacks with all the missile weapons it is armed with (see Attacking). After all of the models in the unit have shot, you can choose another unit to shoot with, until all units that can shoot have done so."

    This means unless the unit has run or retreated you can shoot whenever and at whoever you want.

    For example a unit of hand gunners is charged by a unit of warriors, during their own shooting phase they can choose whether to shoot the warriors in combat with them and then attack again in the melee round or choose to shoot someone else entirely. Likewise, units looking into combat can shoot into it as well.

    This is when I found that Ratling guns are incredibly over powered. Whilst my unit of eight chaos knights were engaged in combat with a unit of rat ogres, the ratling gunners moved up and fired into the combat with 4D6 each worth of shots (there were four of them by the way). So now with no restrictions or penalties to moving, shooting, charging, or being in close combat Age of Sigmar has tilted in favour of the Bow rather then the Hammer.

    5 - Single Models are Fearless.

    Battleshock Phase
    "In the battleshock phase, both players must take battleshock tests for units from their army that ever had models slain during the turn."

    While this is obvious that single model units never take the tests, it also means that units reduced to a single model don't either. While this wouldn't normally be the case for single wound models when it comes to things like cavalry, ogre-sized units and elite soldiers; those guys who have been fleeing in droves over the past two or three turns are suddenly the most sturdy of them all. Being reduced to the last man standing seem to have the opposite affect the opponent would expect, suddenly that lone state troop has stopped all panicking and is ready to die if it means keeping the monstrous ogres from leaving the combat.

    BONUS ROUND - These aren't mention in the rule booklet but they are things we picked up on during our games.

    6 - Unit commands do different things.

    Now I don't mean the difference between champions, musicians and standard bearers I mean the difference from one champion to another. Lets take Warriors of Chaos for example.

    Aspiring Champion (Warriors of Chaos)
    "The leader of this unit is the Aspiring Champion. Add 1 to the result of any hit rolls for an Aspiring Champion."

    Marauder Chieftain (Marauders of Chaos)
    "The leader of this unit is the Marauder Chieftain. He makes 2 attacks rather than 1."

    It's not just the champions either some standards have options whilst others don't (the musicians seem to be stream-lined) leading to a level complication that while isn't big (small actually), it doesn't gel well with the stream-lining they've done with everything else. So be sure to check your rules twice because my friends and I thought it was the same for everyone.

    7 - "You're Karl Franz? I'm Karl Franz too!"

    Nowhere in the entirety of the rules or the warscrolls does it restrict you from using multiple characters with the same name. So if you own both the metal and the plastic version of Karl Franz you can field him twice.

    8 - Bloodthirsters can't summon Bloodthirsters.

    This one is one people all jumped to but upon reading the rules closer, you notice this;

    "Chaos Wizards know the Summon Bloodthirster of Rage spell, in addition to any others they know."

    Now when it means chaos wizards it means that models with the Chaos and Wizard keywords know this spell if a bloodthirsty is present on the battlefield. They don't mention this at all but I believe it's how the rule was meant to be interpreted.


    Afterthought

    After playing so many games it came apparently clear that there was no testing put into this game. Even on a casual level (as competitive is non-existent even with restrictions) there are just so many ways to cut the game short or turn it from the fun narrative experience they aimed for into something that's... not. And I feel that these rules were catered towards the Stormcasts as the win/loss ratio was heavily in their favour as many of them could move, shoot, charge and melee themselves to victory whilst the chaos forces had only melee to deal the damage.

    Overall the rules are a waste of paper; I know Games Workshop are not renowned for their rules but you'd think an entire games studio could write four pages of well worded and/or balanced rules that don't make the players feel like their rolling off to see who wins.

    I myself will be sticking to 40K as it was always my first choice but my friends, they want to continue 8th edition but that's up to the community they play in to decide. They might play Kings of War or just pack up entirely if that isn't the choice. After pushing me out of Battlefleet, Mordheim and now Fantasy with discontinuation or in the latter case rules. People can comment that I could keep playing the older systems (which I can) but they seem to not realise that the discontinuation of a game means few to no new players will enter the scene and as the player base dwindles so does the number of games one can get out of it before the whole thing is relegated to the back of a closet or onto an Ebay auction.

    40K is where I will make my last stand on table top gaming and if they change make 8th edition 40k what fantasy has become I'm done.
    Last edited by The Madman; 07-07-2015 at 06:58 AM.
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  2. #2
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    I know for a fact that these rules have had more playtesting and development than any previous version of Warhammer Fantasy. Just so you know.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Path Walker View Post
    I know for a fact that these rules have had more playtesting and development than any previous version of Warhammer Fantasy. Just so you know.
    They may have but it doesn't feel like that.

    EDIT: also sources please. I find it hard to believe that these four pages of rules were more developed then any other version of warhammer fantasy considering the page count between AoS and 8th.
    Last edited by The Madman; 07-07-2015 at 07:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    They may have but it doesn't feel like that.

    EDIT: also sources please. I find it hard to believe that these four pages of rules were more developed then any other version of warhammer fantasy considering the page count between AoS and 8th.
    Its a lot harder to write clean, concise rules like that than a sprawling tome.

    I have friends in the studio who have been play testing for a long time, can't give names for obvious reasons, but they've done an awful lot of work to make sure this is a system that will work and not need more editions to clean up.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Path Walker View Post
    Its a lot harder to write clean, concise rules like that than a sprawling tome.

    I have friends in the studio who have been play testing for a long time, can't give names for obvious reasons, but they've done an awful lot of work to make sure this is a system that will work and not need more editions to clean up.
    I'm sorry; It isn't harder to write clean, concise rules like that than a sprawling tome. Look at all the board games and card games that have one or more pages of rules. I believe I could single-handedly fix the majority of issues with Age of Sigmar's core rules; it might not be four pages; five, six at best but there wouldn't be any many issues on rules balance with the core rules then there is now.
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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post

    1 - You stop when you feel like it.

    Set-Up - third paragraph
    "You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space. This is your army."

    This one is probably what people may have noticed but not taken into heart exactly what this entails. Usually (especially with our ten games) we informed our opponents on what we were taking; a common courtesy but one that isn't enforced. If players played by how the rules were written this would happen.

    So the first player (the one who got to choose the board side) deploys his first unit, say a Giant. The second player seeing that there is a giant reaches into his army case and pulls out an Empire Cannon and upon seeing a cannon the first player them pulls out a Flamespyre Phoenix.

    This will continue in a form of cat and mouse play until one play feels he has enough models on the table. But what happens if one of these two opponents is a fifteen year veteran with a buck load of different models from different factions? The player with the smallest collection could be out-countered with every unit deployment.
    And the fifteen year veteran should know when to exercise self control and not overwhelm a new player. If i am playing Timmy who just started last week i am not going to take the same warscrolls as i would against Joe who's been playing for 25 years.

    The General
    "Once you have finished setting up all of your units, nominate one of the models you set up as your general. Your general has a command ability, as described in the rules for the hero phase opposite"

    This means your general can be any model in your army not just those who were once allocated to the Lord and Hero slots. This means my Warriors of Chaos could if I liked be commanded by a Slaughterbrute or Warrior amongst my unit of thirty Warriors of Chaos; Hell I could have a single famous familiar as my general. This means you could grant the inspiring presence command ability to a unit, however this would sacrifice your other command abilities in your army. This brings me up to my next rule
    Not seeing the problem here.

    4 - You can shoot all the time.

    Shooting
    "In your shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with missile weapons."

    "Pick one of your units. You may not pick a unit that ran or retreated this turn. Each model in the unit attacks with all the missile weapons it is armed with (see Attacking). After all of the models in the unit have shot, you can choose another unit to shoot with, until all units that can shoot have done so."

    This means unless the unit has run or retreated you can shoot whenever and at whoever you want.
    This i agree could use some clarifying. Not so much shooting into combat- although i'd like to see at least some risk attached to doing so - but shooting while in combat shouldn't be allowed, because it makes no sense. If a ogor is bearing down on you with a hammer bigger than your entire body, you shouldn't be taking aim at the gnoblar stood thirty feet away.

    5 - Single Models are Fearless.

    Battleshock Phase
    "In the battleshock phase, both players must take battleshock tests for units from their army that ever had models slain during the turn."

    While this is obvious that single model units never take the tests, it also means that units reduced to a single model don't either. While this wouldn't normally be the case for single wound models when it comes to things like cavalry, ogre-sized units and elite soldiers; those guys who have been fleeing in droves over the past two or three turns are suddenly the most sturdy of them all. Being reduced to the last man standing seem to have the opposite affect the opponent would expect, suddenly that lone state troop has stopped all panicking and is ready to die if it means keeping the monstrous ogres from leaving the combat.
    Fits the heroics often described in the fluff of GW games. Hans digging deep and vowing to die fighting after seeing his comrades slaughtered is pretty fitting in my opinion.

    7 - "You're Karl Franz? I'm Karl Franz too!"

    Nowhere in the entirety of the rules or the warscrolls does it restrict you from using multiple characters with the same name. So if you own both the metal and the plastic version of Karl Franz you can field him twice.
    This again boils down to self control and playing within the spirit of the game.Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do something.

    Afterthought

    After playing so many games it came apparently clear that there was no testing put into this game. Even on a casual level (as competitive is non-existent even with restrictions) there are just so many ways to cut the game short or turn it from the fun narrative experience they aimed for into something that's... not. And I feel that these rules were catered towards the Stormcasts as the win/loss ratio was heavily in their favour as many of them could move, shoot, charge and melee themselves to victory whilst the chaos forces had only melee to deal the damage.
    I think it's pretty clear that the rules are written with the starter set forces, and future AoS releases in mind. The Warcrolls for WFB armies are a placating gesture for existing customers.

    People can comment that I could keep playing the older systems (which I can) but they seem to not realise that the discontinuation of a game means few to no new players will enter the scene and as the player base dwindles so does the number of games one can get out of it before the whole thing is relegated to the back of a closet or onto an Ebay auction.
    And that's why AoS has come about in the first place. That method of recruiting wasn't working so they are trying something new. Now whether or not it's the right thing to try, that's another question entirely.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    I'm sorry; It isn't harder to write clean, concise rules like that than a sprawling tome. Look at all the board games and card games that have one or more pages of rules. I believe I could single-handedly fix the majority of issues with Age of Sigmar's core rules; it might not be four pages; five, six at best but there wouldn't be any many issues on rules balance with the core rules then there is now.
    That's simply not true, the rules are very well written, you might not like the game they've made but the rules are very well written, there is no excess information and they play easily, everything is explained to you with no ambiguity

    What problems precisely would you fix?

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-pope View Post
    And the fifteen year veteran should know when to exercise self control and not overwhelm a new player. If i am playing Timmy who just started last week i am not going to take the same warscrolls as i would against Joe who's been playing for 25 years.
    That is true, I would too but I know many people who wouldn't. And it's not just age-old veterans I've watched kids/teens in the store doing the exact same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-pope View Post
    Not seeing the problem here.
    Didn't say there was, it was just something I thought I should point out. Though giving it to a non-hero unit would be not be in your own favour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-pope View Post
    This i agree could use some clarifying. Not so much shooting into combat- although i'd like to see at least some risk attached to doing so - but shooting while in combat shouldn't be allowed, because it makes no sense. If a ogor is bearing down on you with a hammer bigger than your entire body, you shouldn't be taking aim at the gnoblar stood thirty feet away.
    As do I, I found as a chaos player with little to no shooting that the shooting into combat was giving my opponent a distinct advantage. When I was engaged in combat it felt like I was fighting five units at once rather then the one and one of those units (the engaged one) could attack twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-pope View Post
    Fits the heroics often described in the fluff of GW games. Hans digging deep and vowing to die fighting after seeing his comrades slaughtered is pretty fitting in my opinion.
    As did rolling the double ones when testing for break tests. The problem with this one is suddenly Hans gets a spurt of morale after seeing half his friends butchered and the other half flee in terror; it just doesn't fit at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-pope View Post
    This again boils down to self control and playing within the spirit of the game.Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do something.
    Again true but it can be done, and people like playing for advantage; even if they don't admit it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-pope View Post
    I think it's pretty clear that the rules are written with the starter set forces, and future AoS releases in mind. The Warcrolls for WFB armies are a placating gesture for existing customers.
    That is the conclusion I came to; it also heavily favours the Stormcasts as many of them have both ranged and melee whilst the chaos side has I believe one shooty unit (the big monster) and only then it has a 6" range.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-pope View Post
    And that's why AoS has come about in the first place. That method of recruiting wasn't working so they are trying something new. Now whether or not it's the right thing to try, that's another question entirely.
    The reason AoS came in was because the buy in was way too much; and that I agree. Whilst a 40k player would need a single box of Tactical marines to field a squad, A fantasy player may need four or five boxes of State troops to make a sizable unit. I'm all for a skirmish game, in fact I was the only one of my friends who was pumped for this. But I feel they went too far on simplicity and should have kept it to at least 40K standards of complexity.

    @Spider-Pope These rules I pointed out weren't complaints; they were things I have missed and I assumed others may do so also when playing with a mindset of knowing the previous edition or any Wrhammer related rule set.

    Quote Originally Posted by Path Walker View Post
    That's simply not true, the rules are very well written, you might not like the game they've made but the rules are very well written, there is no excess information and they play easily, everything is explained to you with no ambiguity

    What problems precisely would you fix?
    But that is what I'm saying; it isn't well written because it's too easy to break. It took less then a day for my friends and I to come up with one turn wins through abusing the sudden death mechanic.

    For example if you intentionally limit yourself to lets say three empire cannons your at twelve models (cannon plus three crew each). So If your opponent puts down a twenty man unit first he will already outnumber you by over a third and that means you can choose assassinate and then snipe him off the board.

    Another example is having tar pits of skaven slaves and let the ratling guns do the work safely behind them since they can shoot into combat.

    As for problems to fix...

    - The general could be up for abuse depending on future content. If say a scenario had the killing of a general as the goal then players could nominate Hans from the hundred-strong state troop unit to be the general and put him behind ninety nine wounds before you can even touch him. Simply adding a sentence stating "Nominate a model with the HERO keyword as your general" would clear that issue up.

    - Sudden deaths are also open to abuse, outnumbering by model count doesn't take into account what the models actually are. One side could have a horde of red shirts whilst the other side could have all elites force.

    - Bases should matter, it shouldn't matter what the base shape is but a base does give an equal measurement from all angles. Measuring from the model doesn't; it allows players to abuse the pose of said model. During one of the starter games I helped the GW rep out (who was busy with other customers) teach a pair of kids how to play. The one who played the Stormcast quickly picked up that he could measure from the tips of the prosecutors wings. So when the second turn came round he turned the model so the wing tips and gained a two inch advantage.

    - Shooting is the biggest concern; it is overpowered no matter how you look at it. You can't jump into combat to escape it and you can't engage them in combat to deny them.

    - Battleshock tests should work off wounds, not models in both testing and fleeing.

    - Cover needs a little reworking regards to narrow terrain pieces like walls; at the moment the wording sounds like you need to stand on it to grant a cover bonus. Putting 1" between within or would sort out the problem. Just so we're clear it would read;

    "If all models in a unit are within 1" or on a terrain feature, you can add 1 to all save rolls for that unit represent the cover they receive from the terrain."

    - They never once mention keywords and how they work or make it clear enough when they do in the warscrolls. This has lead to some players believing their Bloodthirster can summon more Bloodthirsters.

    - A points system is required for quick balancing; It can be a simple one it doesn't have to go too deep to work.
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  9. #9

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    I see most of these as new abstractions of things that need a mental adjustment on our part.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    1 - You stop when you feel like it.
    I don't think this will be an issue for long. Right now the game has no balancing mechanism at all and there are rumors of pending narrative campaign lists and some mechanism for event play. So atm I'm just doing some simple playtests and waiting.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    2 - Your general can be anyone.
    Actually this is pretty cool as the inspiring presence in the army could literally be anyone. Most people will likely stick with a character for the added benefit of additional abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    3 - Only your general has command abilities.
    Makes sense and limits special rule interactions. So this keeps things streamlined.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    4 - You can shoot all the time.
    No issue with this mechanic as you can imagine the groundscale and timescale as being more fluid.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    5 - Single Models are Fearless.
    Works for me. Things that start the game as single models are pretty massive and a unit of one likely won't last long anyhow. Once again you can simply imagine the single bloke fighting to the bitter end once his mates are gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    BONUS ROUND - These aren't mention in the rule booklet but they are things we picked up on during our games.

    6 - Unit commands do different things.
    Just a touch of flavor.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    7 - "You're Karl Franz? I'm Karl Franz too!"
    Since only one model gets to be general I don't see this being a thing. Especially once the balancing mechanism is revealed.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    8 - Bloodthirsters can't summon Bloodthirsters.
    Works for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    I myself will be sticking to 40K as it was always my first choice but my friends, they want to continue 8th edition but that's up to the community they play in to decide. They might play Kings of War or just pack up entirely if that isn't the choice. After pushing me out of Battlefleet, Mordheim and now Fantasy with discontinuation or in the latter case rules. People can comment that I could keep playing the older systems (which I can) but they seem to not realise that the discontinuation of a game means few to no new players will enter the scene and as the player base dwindles so does the number of games one can get out of it before the whole thing is relegated to the back of a closet or onto an Ebay auction.
    It's all relative. I've played 40k since RT and find 7th to be the most bloated, annoying, unbalanced version of the game in this age of the world so I barely play it at all anymore.

    And yes you can keep playing the specialist games. Some of them, like EPIC have large online followings, free updated rules systems and a large list of alternative model producers that make it possible to get people into them. Takes a bit more effort then pop in the shop and pick up some minis but it's worthwhile if you enjoy those systems.

    This game is definitely not WFB anymore... give some time for it to develop. If you were around during the rollout of the other games throughout the years you know the initial offering is bare bones... I can't even remember how many years I had to wait for the Adeptus Titanicus Expansions as a kid, but I do remember it was painfully long!
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    1 - You stop when you feel like it.

    Set-Up - third paragraph
    "You can continue setting up units until you have set up all the units you want to fight in this battle, or have run out of space. This is your army."
    That's intriguing. However, it's important to note that while the rules don't stop you from doing various weird things, like fielding some kind of insane heterogenous army, you can always have a conversation with your opponent. I get that this isn't a replacement for a coherent rule on the matter, but... as I've argued before, there is an element of social contract to all games, even ones with totally coherent rules. For example: do you want to play a super competitive beardy game, or a fun narrative game? I'm not really bothered by the expansion of the social contract element - if I'm playing against some kid with a weird-*** collection, well, I either won't play that game or I'll figure that I've gotten into what I've gotten into, and do my best to have fun anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    2 - Your general can be anyone.

    ...

    3 - Only your general has command abilities.

    The General
    "Once you have finished setting up all of your units, nominate one of the models you set up as your general. Your general has a command ability, as described in the rules for the hero phase opposite"
    I don't really see how either of these are problems, or not-problems. They're just the rules. They make sense to me. And I like the command abilities I've read so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    4 - You can shoot all the time.
    Okay... I'll admit that this isn't my favorite rule. I rather liked the way that a chopping unit could shut down a shooting unit by charging them - it's a shame that you can't do that anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    5 - Single Models are Fearless.
    This I kind of like, actually. Either it's a bold hero - and so he's fearless, so what? That's cool! - or it's a lone survivor desperately fighting off the hordes of opponents. That kind of forlorn, desperate hope is dramatic and cool. And really, how often is it going to happen that one mook of the whole unit ends up surviving to create this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    6 - Unit commands do different things.

    Now I don't mean the difference between champions, musicians and standard bearers I mean the difference from one champion to another. Lets take Warriors of Chaos for example.

    Aspiring Champion (Warriors of Chaos)
    "The leader of this unit is the Aspiring Champion. Add 1 to the result of any hit rolls for an Aspiring Champion."

    Marauder Chieftain (Marauders of Chaos)
    "The leader of this unit is the Marauder Chieftain. He makes 2 attacks rather than 1."
    Well, we already know that the warscrolls we've seen so far are not the "final" warscrolls for those armies. They're just for playing "goodbye games." We'll see real warscrolls for the new armies soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    7 - "You're Karl Franz? I'm Karl Franz too!"

    Nowhere in the entirety of the rules or the warscrolls does it restrict you from using multiple characters with the same name. So if you own both the metal and the plastic version of Karl Franz you can field him twice.
    Okay, that's kind of dumb. Again, something I can solve when I set up the game... but dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    8 - Bloodthirsters can't summon Bloodthirsters.
    I noticed that with my Lizardmen. It seems like it's meant to be a balancing factor for summoning armies. Additionally, you'll note that no wizards that can summon are, in fact

    Quote Originally Posted by The Madman View Post
    40K is where I will make my last stand on table top gaming and if they change make 8th edition 40k what fantasy has become I'm done
    Dude... there are a lot of awesome games out there. Why make 40k your last stand? Just ditch GW entirely and play someone else's games.
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