Villains and the theory of narrative.

[Mr Mystery]

Eldar are your classic, pre-Tolkein Elves - completely self-serving bellends, with absolutely no regard for your well being. Their boon comes at a price, and they never end up short changed.

For reference, watch the really rather wonderful 'Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell'...see what happens when you start to bargain with the Fey.

Or you can read it, if that's your thing!

Remember folks, Ghaz is Eldrad's baby. He did all that to preserve a single Craftworld, on a hunch it might run into danger. The dickhead.

[Stephen James Hand]

Craftworld Eldar aren't 'evil' just because they think nothing of killing billions of humans to save a few of their own species. Humans are basically to Eldar as animals are to humans, of course they will kill any number of them to save a few of their own, to do otherwise would be like someone letting humans die because saving them would mean killing pigs, something most would consider 'immoral'. We have exactly the same attitude as the Eldar to 'lesser species'.

[Mr Mystery]

They have the option of losing a handful of lives to let billions of others live.

Yep. That's pretty evil. And at the risk of Godwin's law this early, there's been various regimes in human history that have done that.

[Charon]

Craftworld Eldar aren't 'evil' just because they think nothing of killing billions of humans to save a few of their own species. Humans are basically to Eldar as animals are to humans, of course they will kill any number of them to save a few of their own, to do otherwise would be like someone letting humans die because saving them would mean killing pigs, something most would consider 'immoral'. We have exactly the same attitude as the Eldar to 'lesser species'.

Agree. We would kill hundreds of animals if it would safe a single human the other way round is rare.
People tend to make the mistake and compare Eldar and humans as "equal lives". They are not. They have exactly the same stance on us as we on animals. Barely sentient, not capable of reason.

[Lexington]

And seriously, f**k the Craftworld Eldar. They are easily the most evil pr!cks in the 40K setting; at least the 'Dark' variety have the decency to be honest about it. An Eldar would trick you into killing your own children and make you think you'd done it for your own good... All to save his family's ancestral rose garden, because a Eldar flower is worth more than you, your family, or your world combined.

This sort of thing came around with 3rd Edition, and I've never really liked it; as a characterization of a race, it's just silly, and as much of a restrictive stereotype as "good" elves. It also doesn't makea lot of sense with their history of loss. Their galactic empire and the vast majority of their population was wiped out because of arrogance and bloodlust. The whole point of the Craftworld Eldar is that they've been humbled as a race, forced into a nomadic lifestyle and still haunted by the literal daemon that their ancestors called up. I always much preferred the older background, where Eldar saw humans as a reflection of their own race before the Fall, and tried (with only limited success) to stop the past from repeating itself.

[YorkNecromancer]

White Supremacists aren't 'evil' just because they think nothing of killing billions of blacks to save a few of their own species. Blacks are basically to White Supremacists as animals are to humans, of course they will kill any number of them to save a few of their own.

That's what it sounds like to me whenever anyone says the Eldar are doing the right thing by allowing 'lesser' races to die. Just because the Eldar view the humans as animals doesn't make it so.

The Eldar may think of humans as no better than animals. They are wrong. Humans are sentient, sapient beings, capable of free will and self-determination. Which is true of the Eldar. So both species are wrong, which is kind of the point of 40K: that it's a tragic, horrible universe, where the conflict is pointless, stupid, and utterly futile. Humans, Eldar... Both species believe in insane racial prejudices that prevent them mutually benefitting from each other's strengths. It's pathetic, and that's the point. The Eldar aren't just a graceful, beautiful race of wondrous beings any more than humanity is a race of belligerent thugs, and their inability to see each other as anything more than animals is a tragedy.

I stand by my comment: the Eldar are evil. Just because they can justify their atrocities to themselves doesn't mean they're not committing atrocities.

as a characterization of a race, it's just silly, and as much of a restrictive stereotype as "good" elves

Is a citizen her nation? Is a man his country?

Individual Eldar are noble, decent, wise and compassionate... As well as selfish, cruel and capricious. People are capable of being complex; species too.

Just because the Imperium is a horrible, totalitarian dystopia, it doesn't follow that all its citizens are monsters. As it is with the Imperium, so it is with the Eldar. As a species, they're horrific. As individuals, they can be wonderful.

Why can't we have a nuanced view? The 40K universe might be the most apocalyptic, awful hellhole imaginable, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of goodness in individuals.

[Charon]

White Supremacists aren't 'evil' just because they think nothing of killing billions of blacks to save a few of their own species. Blacks are basically to White Supremacists as animals are to humans, of course they will kill any number of them to save a few of their own.
That's what it sounds like to me whenever anyone says the Eldar are doing the right thing by allowing 'lesser' races to die. Just because the Eldar view the humans as animals doesn't make it so.

Both are human in your example.
Eldar are not human.
Steak-lovers are not evil just because they think nothing of killing millions of cows to get their precious meat.
Eldar are DIFFERENT to humans. They do not see us like we do. Thats why moralities do not work in 40k. Even the imperium is not the stereotypical fascist nightmare you try to paint it.

[Stephen James Hand]

YorkNecromancer - The way you changed my statement rendered it incorrect, black and white people are the same species, which is my entire point. The whole 'sentience' thing is just a rationalisation used to justify us having a different moral standard for our own species as we do for every other one we have encountered, it's not like it or its absence can even be conclusively proved. The Eldar probably have a different rationalisation to justify why they can treat every other species in the galaxy like crap but still have moral standards amongst themselves too.

They don't only justify their atrocities, they justify them in the exact same way we justify 'atrocities' against other species, what from one perspective is an atrocity, from another is pest control or responsible environmental management.

Comparing cross species interactions to race politics is facile, of course everyone is going to put the welfare of their own species above all others, it's not 'evil' to want to survive as a species like it is to want to kill, mistreat or degrade fellow members of your own species because they look a little different to you.

Eldar certainly aren't 'good' as a race, but I don't think they can be considered 'evil' either. It's funny how Orks seem to get a free pass for having no concept of morality at all, but not Eldar for having a different morality where killing humans is acceptable.

[YorkNecromancer]

Orks are not guilty by reason of insanity. They make no claims to be moral beings. One needs to have an understanding of morality in the first place; an ork can no more understand complex morality than a man without legs can walk. They're a species of living weapons, and that has to be acknowledged. So, not evil. Dangerous, and a deadly threat, but not evil. Put 'em on a planet and let 'em kill each other to death in happiness.

The Eldar know the difference and don't care. That's an act of evil.

Because why are the Eldar superior to humanity? Psychic might, better technology, etc. A bunch of stuff which basically translates to 'better at fighting'. 'We've been here longer, we're better at fighting, our lives therefore have more value than yours'. That's the Eldar logical process. That's the full extent of their justification.

That is a crappy justification. The Eldar understand the value of life, because they understand their own. Their failure to acknowledge the value of human life is a convenient rationalisation for their crimes. It's Othering, plain and simple. "Our species are so different." Really? You're longer lived, you've got psychic powers, and a weird-*** culture... But basically you're a lot like humanity.

The race-hate parallel stands. Same species, different species, it doesn't matter. Sentience is sentience. You don't like the race-hate parallel? Okay, let's look at another fictional parallel. Take the X-Men: protecting a people who hate and fear them. They're a different species too. But Magneto is the villain for a reason: whenever he calls for a human genocide, that's monstrous. That's Wrong. It shouldn't even need to be said. When the humans led by John Sublime exterminate Genosha and kill all the mutants, it's shown as an abhorrent crime. It doesn't matter which side kills the other, that side is unequivocally evil.

As it is with Magneto/John Sublime, so it is with the Eldar.

They don't get to be the good guys just because they're wearing clothes in bright primary colours.

it's not 'evil' to want to survive as a species like it is to want to kill, mistreat or degrade fellow members of your own species because they look a little different to you.

Yes it is.

The Eldar could survive through co-operation as effectively as they could through genocide. The writers choose that latter because it's 40K and so everything must always be GRIMDARK... But that doesn't make it okay. The Federation doesn't get to exterminate the Klingons and get to brag about how heroic they are.

Not to mention, given that the Eldar literally created a Chaos God? It could be said that they have less right to brag about how 'enlighted' and heroic they are.

'Oh, how did you become enlightened? You created the Chaos God of Drugs and Murder-Sex? Well, you seem like totally alright guys to me. What's that you say? Occasionally you sacrifice your best and brightest as fuel for your God of Murder? And sometimes you murder one twin so the other's a more effective Mech pilot? And you need to always wear a magic stone because when you die, you automatically go to Hell? All of you? Because of the aforementioned God of Drugs and Murder-Sex? Seems legit.'

[Denzark]

Yorkie you can't say 'an ork would never get convicted for murder' and then call Eldar evil. They both are sociologically predisposed to regard other races as useless.

Whatever RL psychiatric condition (psychopath or sociopath) you think either of them are, it would be a legal defence in law because they are batfish mad by society's standards.

Also, the Eldar killing whole systems of humans (whether by omission or commission of act) would be seen as acceptable by the Imperium's xenocidal hierarchy - 'we'd do it to them so its who strikes first...'