The debit of summoning in aos

[Houghten]

Yeah....I'm not seeing any summon Dryad spell?

Could be scenario specific?

There is a summoning spell for Dryads: Roused to Wrath, on the Branchwraith Warscroll. Thing is, the whole of its text is as follows:

If successfully cast, set up a unit of 2D6 Dryads more than 3" from the enemy, and fully within a Sylvaneth Wyldwood that is within 12" of the caster.

That's it. Nothing about needing to have a unit of Dryads in your army.

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Mind you, I don't even understand what you mean by counting a unit in your overall force but not deploying it. What you deploy is your overall force. "Any remaining units are held in reserve, playing no part unless fate lends a hand." - The Rules

Those remaining units consist of every other model you have. Is someone trying to argue you can deploy/summon a unit you don't have models for? Because if that's what this thread really boils down to, that person can punch themselves in the face and then we can all go home for tea.

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Sorry, it was Tree Kin:

"Sylvaneth Wizards know the
Regrowth spell in addition to any other
spell they know whilst there are any Tree
Kin on the battlefield."

But Regrowth isn't a summoning spell; it's a healing spell.

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I assume the rules are on the Zombie scroll because a) you'll need that to have the stats for the summoned Zombies anyway and b) it's more efficient that all Death wizards having a huge list of spells on their scrolls.

Indeed.

[Mr Mystery]

Nope.

Treekin one heals an existing unit - thus no Treekin, nowt to heal.

Summoning and Healing are two different things.

[bigwebb24]

So after reading this Ill chime in everyone is right. You do have to have them in your army however if you read the rules youll see that you can delpoy units in reserve. Units in researve play no further part in the battle unless fate intervenes. If you have the unit in reserve then you still techniclly have the warscroll in your army thus your wizard will know the spell. Hope that cleares things up chim in if you have a different thought.

[Ben_S]

But Regrowth isn't a summoning spell; it's a healing spell.

But the point is a general one: whether you need to have the unit (Zombies or Tree Kin) in order for your wizards to use the spell on the unit scroll. People are saying this (i.e. death wizards cannot summon zombies unless you have zombies, because the rule is only on the zombie scroll). But, if that were the case, there would be no need to have a 'whilst there are any Tree Kin on the battlefield' on the Tree Kin scroll. That this restriction is explicitly placed here, whereas there's no such restriction on summon zombies, suggests that you don't need to have zombies in order to summon zombies.



Indeed.[/QUOTE]

[Mr Mystery]

Because if there are no Treekin, there is nothing to heal - this means you can't generate new Treekin.

You have the abilities and equipment options on your scroll.

Other scrolls may grant you additional abilities and benefits, but said scroll has to be part of your army.

The whole 'they're only on other scrolls because of space' is really ropey logic.

[grimmas]

But the point is a general one: whether you need to have the unit (Zombies or Tree Kin) in order for your wizards to use the spell on the unit scroll. People are saying this (i.e. death wizards cannot summon zombies unless you have zombies, because the rule is only on the zombie scroll). But, if that were the case, there would be no need to have a 'whilst there are any Tree Kin on the battlefield' on the Tree Kin scroll. That this restriction is explicitly placed here, whereas there's no such restriction on summon zombies, suggests that you don't need to have zombies in order to summon zombies.


Indeed.

[/QUOTE]

You need to have the Warscroll to have the rules, and no unit means no Warsrcoll which means no rules. The difference being one heals a specific unit where as one summons a whole new unit hence specific caveat on re growth. If you were to say that zombies could still be summoned even if the orginal unit had been destroyed I'd be ok with that as it had already given the summoning spell to the death wizard but it still needs to be there at some point. It isn't that the summon rule is just on the Zombie scroll it's that it specifically states that is grants the summons spell to death wizards. If you don't have the scroll there's nothing to grant the spell to the wizard so again no scroll, no rules and you can't have a Warscroll if you don't have a unit.

[Al Shut]

But the point is a general one: whether you need to have the unit (Zombies or Tree Kin) in order for your wizards to use the spell on the unit scroll. People are saying this (i.e. death wizards cannot summon zombies unless you have zombies, because the rule is only on the zombie scroll). But, if that were the case, there would be no need to have a 'whilst there are any Tree Kin on the battlefield' on the Tree Kin scroll. That this restriction is explicitly placed here, whereas there's no such restriction on summon zombies, suggests that you don't need to have zombies in order to summon zombies.

Come to think of it, that restriction is kind of superfluous, isn't it? If there are no Tree Kin, what are you healing?

[Mr Mystery]

To me it suggests you can add models to a Treekin unit if they're all hale and healthy.

[Houghten]

no unit means no Warsrcoll

Why?

To me it suggests you can add models to a Treekin unit if they're all hale and healthy.

No. "If successfully cast, select a Tree Kin model within 18". That model heals D3 wounds." (emphasis mine)
Healing is defined in The Rules: "Some warscrolls include abilities that allow wounds to be healed. A healed wound no longer has any effect. You can’t heal wounds on a model that has been slain."

[Ben_S]

You need to have the Warscroll to have the rules, and no unit means no Warsrcoll which means no rules ... If you don't have the scroll there's nothing to grant the spell to the wizard so again no scroll, no rules and you can't have a Warscroll if you don't have a unit.

What do you mean by 'have the warscroll'? The warscroll is a just piece of paper with rules on it. One of those rules says that Death wizards can summon zombies (or, to put it another way, that zombies can be summoned by any Death wizard). What makes you think that this is only the case if you already have zombies in your army?

It seems that you think you need to include a unit of models before you have access to the rules for them, but surely you need the rules before you can bring the models...

Come to think of it, that restriction is kind of superfluous, isn't it? If there are no Tree Kin, what are you healing?

That's kind of the point. The spell wouldn't be of any use without a target (Tree Kin) to heal anyway. Nonetheless, the scroll is still explicit that the wizard does not have the spell if there are no Tree Kin. Why does it say this? Presumably because otherwise he would have the spell (albeit that it would be useless).