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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Path Walker View Post
    You need to remember the caveat about not playing with dickholes
    That doesn't work well with public events unfortunately, you get paired up with whomever.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auticus View Post
    My only words on this are simply: if you feel you can do better then do so. This is the internet age... self publication is very easy. Write your version of 40k, then push it out to the masses. If its truly good and sticks, you will have a great product. If not, then it will fall on its face.

    A community edition of anything is hard because the community has 100 different ideas about what 40k should be. I think a community edition of 40k is destined to be stillborn. I thnk you're better off writing a sci-fi set of rules that any models can use, then try to market it on your own.

    Let it stand on its own and be judged by its own merits.
    It is not so much a matter of doing better, more an attempt to return the game to its purity. It is my firm view that Formations and altered detachments are the primary reason 7th has begun to fail, and they are such an obvious ploy to get players to just buy more models and damn the game consequences that, well, I digress. I have a little experience with game design, though I don't flatter myself enough to really say I'm a game designer anymore, but I've always believed that you should not wholesale remake an already successful game simply in the name of change. This is what D&D did with 4th edition, because they believed they knew better than their own fans, and it blew up in their face. Amazingly, GW is about to make the exact same series of mistakes (in my view) even when they have a prime example of what not to do in their own industry (pretty much) staring them in the face.

    Perhaps you are right though. Maybe it is a wasted effort. But the reason I wonder is precisely the 3.5-4th edition D&D example above. 40K, like D&D, is not like any of its peers in its gaming market. It's huge, special and possibly bigger than can be really quantified in the realms of wargaming. It is. Just my gut feeling. And I wonder, if like D&D, the company steers it too far away from what it actually is, will the fans just refuse to go along. Not go away, to other things, but just carry on despite what the company wants. Maybe, maybe not. There is admittedly not much precedence. But I look at the big tournaments, how many of them have already done so much to tweak and clarify 40k issues that GW refuses to be bothered with any more, and I wonder what they will do. Will they just go away? Move to other games? They won't be able to run tournaments of an AoS type 40k, and honestly, I don't believe any other game out there currently can sustain them even near the levels they are now. But perhaps, like the fans of D&D 3.5, they can just carry on with 7th.

    Anyway, that's the whole path my mind was beginning to steer down when I originally posted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    For what it's worth, the Kill Team rules seem to work really well for 7th. Looking them over a playing a bunch of games with my brother with them, they seemed pretty Broken-proof. At least, we couldn't see any way to just steamroll everyone. My only complaint is that I wish there were more scenarios, particularly ones using the Tactical Objectives. Still, I'm working on that...

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazzigum View Post
    It is not so much a matter of doing better, more an attempt to return the game to its purity. It is my firm view that Formations and altered detachments are the primary reason 7th has begun to fail,
    How has it begun to fail? Its doin very well in most areas...Im guessing this is your personal speculation as well. No evidence to support that claim.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazzigum View Post
    It is not so much a matter of doing better, more an attempt to return the game to its purity. It is my firm view that Formations and altered detachments are the primary reason 7th has begun to fail, and they are such an obvious ploy to get players to just buy more models and damn the game consequences that, well, I digress. I have a little experience with game design, though I don't flatter myself enough to really say I'm a game designer anymore, but I've always believed that you should not wholesale remake an already successful game simply in the name of change. This is what D&D did with 4th edition, because they believed they knew better than their own fans, and it blew up in their face. Amazingly, GW is about to make the exact same series of mistakes (in my view) even when they have a prime example of what not to do in their own industry (pretty much) staring them in the face.

    Perhaps you are right though. Maybe it is a wasted effort. But the reason I wonder is precisely the 3.5-4th edition D&D example above. 40K, like D&D, is not like any of its peers in its gaming market. It's huge, special and possibly bigger than can be really quantified in the realms of wargaming. It is. Just my gut feeling. And I wonder, if like D&D, the company steers it too far away from what it actually is, will the fans just refuse to go along. Not go away, to other things, but just carry on despite what the company wants. Maybe, maybe not. There is admittedly not much precedence. But I look at the big tournaments, how many of them have already done so much to tweak and clarify 40k issues that GW refuses to be bothered with any more, and I wonder what they will do. Will they just go away? Move to other games? They won't be able to run tournaments of an AoS type 40k, and honestly, I don't believe any other game out there currently can sustain them even near the levels they are now. But perhaps, like the fans of D&D 3.5, they can just carry on with 7th.

    Anyway, that's the whole path my mind was beginning to steer down when I originally posted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    For what it's worth, the Kill Team rules seem to work really well for 7th. Looking them over a playing a bunch of games with my brother with them, they seemed pretty Broken-proof. At least, we couldn't see any way to just steamroll everyone. My only complaint is that I wish there were more scenarios, particularly ones using the Tactical Objectives. Still, I'm working on that...
    See this is where your problem is, you're seeing their audience as the tournaments and the competitive players. Its not, hasn't been for years,.

    Also 4th Edition D&D was cool which a really interesting tactical combat system and ruined by nerds resistant to change running rampant online with negative reviews.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaric View Post
    How has it begun to fail? Its doin very well in most areas...Im guessing this is your personal speculation as well. No evidence to support that claim.
    Apparently you haven't read their last 3 yearly financial reports. If 7th was doing as great as all the GWombies claim, why has GW lost revenue for 3 straight years while the overall tabletop wargaming industry grew at a record pace? Correlation doesn't equal causation but there's a strong case here...

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Path Walker View Post
    Also 4th Edition D&D was cool which a really interesting tactical combat system and ruined by nerds resistant to change running rampant online with negative reviews.
    For myself it felt like they tried to turn it into a gotdamn vidya game. If I wanted to play a gotdamn vidya game Id play a gotdamn vidya game. Just felt very pigeonholed for character development, the magic weapons WERE vidya game statistics pretty much. I gave it a fair try, a year, but when I asked the group what system to stick with it was a resounding 3.5.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toofast View Post
    Apparently you haven't read their last 3 yearly financial reports. If 7th was doing as great as all the GWombies claim, why has GW lost revenue for 3 straight years while the overall tabletop wargaming industry grew at a record pace? Correlation doesn't equal causation but there's a strong case here...
    While GW's financial statements are a public record, as they are a publicly traded company, where are records for the privately held other wargaming firms? Or the tabletop wargaming sector.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toofast View Post
    Apparently you haven't read their last 3 yearly financial reports. If 7th was doing as great as all the GWombies claim, why has GW lost revenue for 3 straight years while the overall tabletop wargaming industry grew at a record pace? Correlation doesn't equal causation but there's a strong case here...
    Fair nuff, but losses on their end cant be strictly blamed on 7th. No evidence says that 7th is the cause, that's what I was getting at.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaric View Post
    Fair nuff, but losses on their end cant be strictly blamed on 7th. No evidence says that 7th is the cause, that's what I was getting at.
    They're not making losses, if I recall sales were down but profits were up. That is still not a loss...
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denzark View Post
    They're not making losses, if I recall sales were down but profits were up. That is still not a loss...
    He was saying losses, me I could care less, I just play the game

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